doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com C. Daly

Crossed pistol over HAL just in front of the action flats, a Lindner gun in my view.

The trademark would clinch it, but I'll stick with my numbers...Geo

George... the last string of pics I posted show the crossed pistols ahead of the barrel flats.

Yup, I embiggened it and now I see the trademark...Geo

Miller,
I wasn't trying to sharpshoot you, it was just my "wordy" way to explain the early date and what seemed to be a long chamber. As far as I know, whether it was dated or listed the ledger number, was a proof house decision, not mandated by law. You are correct that early smokeless( voluntary nitro)proofs had to follow BP rules for the amount of powder used in the proof loads. It is true that some guns that were really intended to use nitro powder were submitted for BP proof. Also, some were submitted for nitro proof, but for a smaller duty load than was intended for use. As far as your gun having a 70mm chamber, the proof houses proofed the guns for nonstandard chamber lengths on request. This was fairly common on guns for export. If the gun had a standard chamber the size(caliber) was enclosed in a circle. Non standard chamber lengths( either shorter or longer) had to be marked with the nominal chamber length in mm(if export maybe inches). The proof load being shown on the gun, showing bore diameter in gauge measurement, and without chamber length for rifles, calculating smokeless proof load weights, under the 1891 law( effective early 1893) caused a lot of confusion and improvements were made in an attempt to clear up the confusion, in 1911. The significance of the 1912 date is that was when the 1911 improvements became effective. I did note that your bore( not groove or bullet) diameter was shown in gauge measurement(pre 1912), but the chamber length was shown( post 1912). There are a couple explanations for this, but I think it may have been by request, since it was for export to VL&D. I hope I didn't confuse matters.
Mike

Der Ami;
I may have confused you some in speaking of two different guns. The 16 gauge drilling barrels have 65 mm chamber lengths. There is no makers name on the Drilling. The 172.28 gauge bore diameter converts to 0.300", which seems a bit small for an 8 mm. My understanding though is this was checked by a series of plug gauges in.010" increments. Next step up would be 156.14 gauge or 0.310". The bore currently measures 0.309" with a groove diameter of 0.321".
The load of Shultz on the shot barrels converts to a 2�dram-1oz load which is lighter than normal. This gun was brought from Germany by a WWII Veteran.

The Sauer & Son/VL&D 12 gauge double is the one with 70mm (2 3/4") chambers. The 70 is stamped on the extractor face & actual measurement of the chambers show that to be correct. This gun is in good overall condition, with a couple of exceptions. It had a leather-covered cheek piece in the stock covering what appears to be cork which was set in a pocket cut into the stock. The leather is dried out & has rips in it. The entire forend, wood & iron is missing. I could repair the stock but this is of no benefit until I find a forend.

I also have a hammer drilling made by Miller & Val Greiss in 16-16-9.3x72R. It is dated from 1913 & has all proper proof per the 1912 rules. It does have one rather poorly made replacement, the left one, fortunately, so does not affect the trigger which switches from shot to rifle barrel.

Miller,
You are correct, I did think you were talking about one gun. I understand the "steps" between the plug gauges used to measure bore diameter was .1mm or about .004". Even though it was almost 156.14 gauge, if the plug wouldn't quite fit in it would be marked the next size down, even though it wasn't as close to the actual size. We have to remember the time the system was formulated, though. Your gun was intended to use .318" bullets, but you can use the 32 Win. Spec. .321 bullets in hand loading and I hear good things about the new Flex Tip bullets. I'm pretty sure Larry Schuknecht at Dutchmann Wood Works can make you a new forearm( incl. iron)for the Sauer. Do you know who actually made the Miller & Val Greiss? If it was Meffert, I have a parts drilling( frame cracked & Welded) that has two good locks with matching hammers. It also has a good forearm, but it wouldn't do you any good.
Mike

George, I am far from a Lindner expert, I have however seen a fair number and have owned a few also. I have never owned a 20ga Lindner and have seen only one that I restocked for a customer. Sub gauge Lindners are, IMHO, pretty rare hence my price?

Has HAL over the proof marks. Lindner had to change their proof marks because they were too much like the proof marks of the proof house.

Jon and Doug, I think George wrote that post before a photo was posted that showed the HAL mark of Lindner.