doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 1908 Sauer SxS

Hi all,
Looking for some help.

This was my grandfather’s shotgun. Here's what I know about it. SN: 143655, 16 gauge, sxs, 26 ¾ inch, black powder, Krupp 3 Ringe Weapons Grade Steel, chocked barrels, 70 mm chambers, extractor, Greener safety, made March 1 or Jan 3, 1908, by J P Sauer and Sohn, Suhl, Germany. The Krupp barrels were made in Essen Germany. Barrels have a mirror finish. There is also a single crown on the right side of the flat. I’ve read that was Sauer's indicator of excellent barrel material and shooting abilities.

The engraving of the dachshunds is very detailed. If enlarged, there is a buckle shown on one collar and faint markings of field vegetation can be seen around them.

Any help identifying what model it is, what the initial T on one and the initial W on the other underside of the barrels indicate would be appreciated. The initial H appears on the flats of the stock. Is this a rare gun? I can’t find any similar photos of this fine 1908 Sauer sxs shotgun. Let me know if any of my interpretations of markings et. are incorrect.

Would hand polishing the flats affect the value? Approximate value of this shotgun?

Thanks,
Bob

enter web address for gallery of photos. No password needed

[img]https://bobbasil1.shootproof.com/gallery/22699817/home[/img]

sounds like you have one of the finest shotguns ever made...

fact is, the pre ww1 sauers are my favorite guns...

your gun was made to shoot smokeless loads, so limiting it to black powder loads is not necessary...

one ounce field loads, moving at 1200 fps or less from the muzzle, should be just fine for this old gun...

but, as with any old gun, have it checked over by a knowledgeable gunsmith before shooting...

if you ever decide to part with it let me know via pm...

meantime, enjoy...

https://ammonerds.com/product/16-gauge-fiocchi-game-1-oz-8-shot-lead-11165fps-25-rounds-16gt8/

why would you polish the barrel flats?

the greener type safety in the head of the stock is unusual for a sauer shotgun...

luv them doggies...they may be unique...

also, it is unusual that the frame is not stamped "made in prussia", which was the norm for sauers back then...

your gun in its condition and configuration is scarce and desirable...

That is a nice shotgun in pretty nice condition considering its' age. I don't see a lot of vintage German doubles that have a straight grip stock. It certainly doesn't look like it has ever been refinished. Some here would say that the mirror bores would indicate they have been honed, since it was built prior to the introduction of non-corrosive priming. But I'd say it was simply proof that the owner was a guy who knew enough to clean and oil the bores after shooting it.

Cleaning the flats with some 0000 steel wool and oil would not hurt the value. I would refrain from using any abrasive cloth or sandpaper at all. And if you get exuberant and start polishing the rest of the gun, all bets are off. Incorrect cleaning and polishing, no matter how well your intentions, will adversely affect the value. The outside of the frame looks like it still has a fair amount of case hardening colors hidden under some oxidation. Some guys here have found that case hardening colors in this condition can be dramatically restored with cleaning in an ultrasonic cleaner. You can do a search of old threads here for ultrasonic cleaning, and probably see photos of what is possible. So don't scrub that stuff off.

There is also a sub-forum here that specializes in German and Austrian guns, and you might get some more information from guys who hang out there. The best way I know of to ascertain value is to watch the prices for completed sales on the larger gun auction sites. But you have to compare guns in the same grade and overall condition, and remember that even things like the time of year or the day and time an auction closes can affect the final sales price. Opinions of value are often misleading at best.

Robert Ruark's Christmas present from the "Old Man" was a 16g Sauer
https://biggamelogic.com/ruarks-guns/
which he was still using in Africa
https://feathersandwhiskey.com/bwana-ndege-the-bird-master/

Culit,
You indicated the chamber length is 70mm, the 16 in a circle shows it was proofed with 65mm chambers. If the chambers actually measure 70mm, they were likely lengthened in the US and not reproofed. The engraving, in my opinion, was by special request and maybe used a photo of the owner's favorite hunting dogs. I'm not sure the dogs are dachshunds; they could also be shorthair or wirehair pointers.
Mike

Thanks to all for the great information. I have some friends who could make shells to meet your recommendations. I've never shot it.
I have no intention of polishing anywhere, except on the flats to avoid any further deterioration. I wouldn't touch the barrels or anywhere with scroll work. The unusual aspects y'all picked up on have confused me. The straight stock green or safety and dogs might indicate a special order. I thought the number 70 stamped in the picture where the extractors are shown was the chamber length. I've heard that single initials may be a personal stamp of man who worked on it.

I'm holding onto this nice gun. My grandfather used it in New Jersey meadowlands to feed the family during the depression. thanks to all for your great help.

You should definitely keep that gun as a family heirloom. Per the serial number list I have from a Double Gun Journal article, 1908 is the correct year of production.

The fact that the gun does not have "Made in Prussia" would indicate that it was not made for export. Do you have any idea where and how your grandfather acquired the gun? Guns in Germany were confiscated by US occupying forces after WWII. Some of them ended up coming home in duffel bags. At any rate, the gun was likely initially acquired in Germany after which it made its way to the US.

looking at photos from the DGJ articles, your Sauer is not one of the really high grades. The higher grades would have had a scalloped receiver rather than the straight line back which yours has. Going higher grade still, those guns had incredible deep relief game scene engraving. But yours is clearly not just an entry level gun either, as indicated by the engraving. As Ed pointed out, the Greener side safety is somewhat unusual on a Sauer. The closest I can come to a possible model match for yours would be a Model VIII. Same cocking indicators. Same straight backed receiver.

I'm sure you may read more from Sauer collectors. Enjoy your gun! My very first classic sxs was a Sauer from the between the wars years. Far more basic than yours. No matter the grade, Sauers of the vintage of your gun were all very well made. Enjoy it!

Culit,
I didn't "blow up" any of the photos, until you mentioned a 70 on the extractor. Such a mark, indeed, indicates the chamber was lengthened to 70mm (2 3/4") and special ammunition is not likely required. My opinion differs from others very often, but polishing the barrel flats as you described would not hurt at all. If my German gunsmith friend took this gun in for any work, he would likely also polish the barrel flats, the sides of the locking lugs, the extractor, and the muzzle, if corrosion was present; I saw him do this many times, just as an automatic service. These are areas that would have left the factory polished bright. If these areas are blued on a German gun, I would suspect it was reblued in hot salts making the rib solder joints suspect. In my opinion this gun should be used and cherished by you and/or other members of your family.
Mike

My gunsmith, CJO from this board and many of you are familiar with the quality of his work, would polish those areas as well.