doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Non Hal Daly 20ga with dates on flats

Hope this helps with dating the non Hal guns and who made them
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1027229854

That's a very interesting gun even it's its not a Lindner. Damn few 20 gauge made by anyone for Daly. .

Not a whole lot of touchmarks to juggle, with the script >>E.W.<< standing out.... And in an attempt to correlate those initials with a Suhl mechanic:


Ernst Weigand
Emil Weiss
Franz Emil Werner
Ernst Werner
Ernst Robert Wolf
Ewald Wolf
Ernst Wolf

I'd say that an E. Werner or E. Wolf would lead the pack but there is little to narrow the field.

Barrel Browner Emil Willig was probably involved.

Square crossbolt and quite long toplever seem to be a throwback to the original H.A. Lindner Daly's. This one looks to lack the polished look of a Lindner - Daly, but some of the original Lindner - Daly subcontractors might have been sourced for effort.

Boxed >>K<<s are noted on the tubes, which were more than likely sourced from Liège.

Also the engraver is not the typical one......

But it was made in Suhl in late Oktober 1923(10/23) and was number 140 for the month of Oktober. The Suhl proof facility had some sort of renovation in the early 1920s and in late 1923 the Suhl proof facility did use a ledger number for a period of about 6 months.

Plus on this Daly, they paid for the >>Nitro<< proof effort, which was atypical for previous Lindner - Dalys.

This is purely a Suhl A&D Body Action badged with >>Charles Daly<<.



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, to my uninformed eye, it looks like the same basic action as my CD Diamond 12 gauge from May 1925...serial number 11577....which kinda seems in appropriate sequence for a gun made 18-19 months later.

Canvas-Back:

It could be, but the Daly of which you are a custodian just reeks of quality but I just cannot see it in the subject Daly. Frames in the white were available to anyone who wanted one. The wood to frame fit just seems off and might be due to age.

Yours too has one of the boxed >>k<<s noting a single effort. Possibly the same maker.

So 10583 to 11577 over 19 months @ the end of WWI during a difficult period in German history? So that is 52 longarms a month? Maybe......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

By 1923-1925 we are well into the roaring twenties. Markets in the US were booming.

Earlier it was speculated that mine was a product of Kreighof. Like many of them, without definitive markings it’s just a guess.

I found it interesting that CJO’s assement of my 1925 gun was that it was every bit the quality equal of my Lindners from the 1900-1905 era but with better quality steel. Where things had changed was the extent and difficulty of th engraving. The later gun has simpler and less extensive coverage, although what has been done was done to a high standard.

Kreighoff is a good guess with Röchling Steel.

I am not sure the year, but post WWI Simson had a monopoly in the Weimar Republic and I am not sure what the date was when other makers joined in the fray for funds.

Yes, from 1924 for 5(five) years the Weimar Republic saw a boom and it was referred to as the >>Golden Twenties<< but what about from 1923 - 1924? Still a big puzzle but the answers may lie with the Suhl Proof Facility? If the records exist for this period, the subject Daly 20 bore would be an easy search.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

From a economic boom standpoint, I was more thinking about the US market as that where the Daly's were destined for. Not that important what was going on in the Weimar Republic in 1923....it's what was happening in the US and in NYC.

A flurry of bidding activity on the 15th and 16th, with two bidders dominating the last 8 or so bids. Looks like they are now sitting quietly until 30 min before the auction closes. LOL

If i wasn't expecting delivery in the next 30 days of a new to me Lindner project gun, I might join the fray. At the same time, i already have a Daly 20 ga and more than a couple 26" barrelled guns including my Purdey. don't really need more. Wish I could shoulder the subject gun.

I realize that but mechanics were hungry and using whatever they could find/source for components from post WWI to say 1923. Germans were making them, not Americans. Simson had diversified and had an iron-clad weapons contracts and the mid 1920s was the heyday for Simson as they were racing cars, I believe Otto Reif was one of their drivers and some sort of manager, manufacturing weapons, bicycles and rubber baby buggy bumpers among other things.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I have a small data base of second series Lindner guns I have come across, about 90 guns. But I have not collected any info on the post Lindner/post WWI Dalys. Given the presence of the proof house date stamps, would be interesting to acquire some data points and see what that looks like for production quantities. Part of me has wondered if the post WW1 serial numbers were issued by Daly in their sequence or if they were the house numbers of the various makers. Someone probably already has figured that out.

Subject gun weighs 5 pounds, 1 ounce.

Axel Pantermühl gives that August Schüler and Daly were in bed together post WWI due to some correspondence between Fredrik W. Hollender of New York in May, 1935. The gist of the info was that Schüler's most capable machine shop did the heavy lifting for H.A. Lindner's machined actions and components and that August Schüler, with Richard Schüler @ the helm, filled Daly's orders post WWI. A Robert Fahner who was well connected in New York, joined August Schüler in 1928. Shortly after this, August Schüler commenced with some frank conversations about Daly actually being able to pay their bills?????

A few quotes about Charles Daly Post WWI:

>>Schoverling, Daly and Gales changed ownership several times throughout the years. Eventually, the company's primary asset was the Charles Daly trademark. In 1919 Henry Modell bought the company and controlled it for several years. In the 1920's, he sold out to the Walzer family, owners of Sloan's Sporting Goods of Ridgefield, Connecticut. The Walzer's established a branch of Sloan's in New York known as Charles Daly & Company. Sloan's imported quality shotguns from many companies, including Italian gun makers Beretta and Vincenzo Bernardelli, Miroku of Japan and Garbi of Spain.<<


https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/charles-daly-over-100-years-of-importing-firearms/


>>Davega Sporting Goods purchased Schoverling, Daly & Gales in November of 1926 and it appears that Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales hit the rocks by 1928 and sunk never to rise again.

I don't have all the S,D&G catalogues but it appears that from 1918 onward that Charles Daly guns or "Daly Guns" don't appear in the adverts. So give an explanation that H.A. Lindner had closed his shop but it may be that the trademark Charles Daly & Schoverling, Daly and Gales were divorced at this time and it may have been Sloan's Sporting Goods had purchased the trademark name but Charles Daly, inc and the Daly trademark don't seem to surface till 1927. Others speculate that Sloan's Sporting Goods acquired the name from Davega Sporting Goods but it appears to be earlier. <<


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=376141&page=18

>>All right I have realized the sourced of the 1919 Henry Modell acquisition of S,D&H info and it was the NRA. Mr. Wes Fink of Daytona, Florida had given me the reference at one time but I can't seem to find it. I have performed somewhat of an extensive search and I just don't think that to be the case. Now around this time Henry Modell as a director on the board for the Smaller Businesses of New York, or something like that, & they dolled out cash and it may have been here that some cash was injected into the stumbling S,D&G. But until Theodore W. Stake is out of the picture, along with his sidekick Charles Howard Daly, I don't see it happening. Anyone know of the NRA reference and their source?<<


>>Just in searching and not having the catalgoues in hand, I haven't seen Charles Daly guns in the 1918, 1921 or 1923 but the name reappears in the 1926 and subsequent Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales of 1927. Many times the Charles Daly name is associated with the SBT Sextuple offerings. Also there appears to be a gun catagloue and a gun parts catalogue but in each year it could have been one or the other. Thanks for any effort.<<


>>No, I think it is as I have surmised that the tradename Charles Daly & the company Schoverling, Daly & Gales split, and they may have split in the 1916-1919 period. But odd that Charles Daly SBT appear in the 1926 version just before Davega acquires S,D&G in November 1926 I think.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

So with the above, about every year post WWI, a new owner could have been placing orders with a Suhl mechanics???


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

What I was searching for on Bicycle Specialist Joseph Gales birth & death:

>>......Daly & Gales searched for the best and brightest to help drive their firm. They advertised in Harvard & Yale publications and seemed to draw from those pools.

William Herbert Crawford passed the Harvard entrance exam a year early and was very active in athletics. Against the wishes of his family he left Harvard during his Sophomore year to join Schoverlnig, Daly & Gales where he remained until 1884, when he moved on to real-estate.

For now I can't say where William Sherer, Jr. was educated, but he learned from the best as he was an apprentice to Alonzo Alford, who is considered as a pioneer in the New York gun trade. In the early 1880s, William Sherer, Jr. joined the Schoverling, Daly & Gales firm and remained there till 1889 when he became an employee of the Winchester Repeating Arms Company, where he remained for some 23 years. He was the Far East(Eastern portion of the world reached by ship) salesman.

Alonzo Alford was born on January 28th, 1837 to Ammi and Clarissa G. White Alford in Brooklyn, New York. Having 20 years, he began with A.G. Strong a Burlington hardware merchant. In 1863 he moved to New York and found employment at Merwin & Bray, which later became Merwin, Hulbert & Company. Somehow he migrated to the Ballard Rifle Manufacturing Company attaining the rank of treasure as well as manager. About the same time he was a founder in Alford, Berkele & Clapp which was a New York agent from Eliphalet Remington & Sons. In 1871 he held the position of general manager at the Eliphalet Remington & Sons New York warerooms. In 1878/1879 Eliphalet Remington & Sons experienced some sort of turmoil and Alonzo Alford purchased some part, maybe just the NY branch, which he owned for 2 years before selling it back. In 1881 he resigned and purchased a large interest in a Massachusetts tool and knife manufacture with New York warerooms, which in 1883 was incorporated as the Alford & Berkele Company.

I realize that neither of brothers Alford worked for Schovering, Daly & Gales, but bear with me as the relationships put the gun trade into perspective. Alonzo Alford's borther Albert Gallatin Alford was born on October 14th, 1847. Evidently one of their parents, or both, died while he was yet a boy. Bootstrapping himself thru a stint with the U.S. of A. Engineer Corps, he became the manager of Eliphalet Remington & Sons Chicago retail outlet and then the Baltimore wearroom from 1874 to 1883, when he founded the A.G. Alford Sporting Goods Company. And remember the Samuel Norris(Eliphalet Remington agent)-Mauser debacle.

Back to Schoverling, Daly & Gales and much later in 1899 after Charles Daly's death, on November 25th, 1899 Schoverling, Daly & Gales was incorporated by Jospeh Gales of Elizabeth, New Jersey, Ella Daly King of East Orange, New Jersey and Theodore William Stake of New York City. William Theodore Stake was born in 1861 in NY City but educated in London and then Canada. He was vice president in 1915 and VP, secretary & director in 1918 after Joseph Gales' expiring on June 3rd, 1916(born April 29th, 1847). Some concern, maybe S,D&G offered a scattergun with the tradename T.W. Stake.

Frederic J. Wilbur was a director in 1914.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Anyone want more Daly chaos????? I will try to re-read all this & put it in perspective with a timeline for both Charles Day & Suhl Mechanics from post WWI to 1929, say.

Any naysayers or detractors??

Serbus,
Raimey
rse

Even though I give the subject Daly a knock, I must say the Fink Collection of Prussian Dalys was just unbelievable. Mr. Wesley Fink ferried them up from lower Florida to my hotel in St. Augustine lo so many years ago...... Mr. Wesley Fink was one of the world's best Box Pigeon shooters, or at the very least an accomplished Pigeon Shooter, & I think accomplished it w/ the O/U Dalys from the 1930s & I for one would hazard a guess were made by Gebrüder Adamy.......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

This doesn't help clarify anything but part of my interest is due to the nature of the whole Charles Daly enterprise (separate from SD&G). I spent my career in the sporting goods trade and was involved with branding, private labelling and licensing deals. Spalding, Dunlop, Etonic, Slazenger to name a few. The CD brand is a very early example of private labelling......something that is commonplace now across all consumer products. And watching the CD brand transition from being an in house private label, nurtured by it's owners, to simply a brand name slapped on whatever product hits the ever decreasing target price point is the very history of brand licensing.

I seem to recall Mr Fink being mentioned in the GGCA reprint of Charles Daly articles.

Alright then, I will not add to it.

lp,

Raimey
rse

Some Röchling info......


>>Anyway, I'm inclined to think that the R in the R�chling Spezial Stahl R7L just might be for Rodenhauser. Hermann R�chling & Wilhem Rodenhauser teamed up in 1905 I believe it was & it may be their 1st alloy developed between 1907-1916? Their furnace, R�chling-Rodenhauser-Induktions-Ofens, was online by 1908. Roechling had a large influence at Mousson in the French province of Lorraine by establishing a monopoly. Apparently in 1914 in constructing their own steel mill the Carlsh�tte they were utilizing components, tools & machinery from the French-Lorraine area and after WWI that was frowned upon by the powers that be and in 1918 one of the R�chling fellas(probably Hermann & maybe a brother Robert) was convicted of disassembly of a French multiple smelter and the demerit was 10 years, fine of 10 million Francs and a banishment of 15 years from Saarland. Looks as if Robert spent some time there as Hermann was elusive and escaped to Heidelberg.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=321008&page=2

I was looking towards Krieghoff serial numbers and they seem to fall behind a bit from the Dalys. Kreighoff was somewhat military production, so if Krieghoff is to be considered, I wonder if the Sempert & Kriehgoff arm of H. Krieghoff is to blame for Sporting Weapons production??

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Never mind

Church Windows/Panels






Serbus,


Raimey
rse