doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Gauges and payloads

This is a question that has bugged me for some time, now. I see so often that shooters here load 3/4 oz. loads for 12 ga. guns. I would like some explanation on why different folks do this.

I have doubleguns in all popular gauges ...... 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410 bore. I have developed, for me, a pretty strict "chart" of payloads that I will use in the different gauges and bores. They are as follows:

10 - 1 1/4 oz. and up
12 - 1 oz. thru 1 3/8 oz.
16 - 1 oz. thru 1 1/8 oz.
20 - 7/8 oz. thru 1 oz.
28 - 3/4 oz.
.410 - 1/2 oz. thru 3/4 oz.

What are the reasons for using a 3/4 oz. load in a 12 ga. gun? I know all the arguments about short-for-the-gauge shot columns, cost savings on the shot, recoil reduction, etc. But, using a 3/4 oz. load in a 12 has never appealed to me, not even in a 16 or 20 for that matter. And, I would like to understand the reasoning behind others doing this. When there are gauges well suited to lesser payloads why go to the effort to load an "anemic" load in a larger bore?

There won't be any belittling of anyone's opinions by me, whatever they are. I'd just like to understand the motivations of different folks.

Thanks in advance. Please share your opinions.

My reason could not be more simple, I only own two shotguns and both are 12 ga., I do not shoot 3/4 OZ often but I regularly shoot 7/8 OZ at both clays and Blue Grouse.

Being a SASS (cowboy action) shooter I see a lot of people loading down the 12 gauge. 3/4 or 7/8 of an ounce at approximately 950 fps in a 12 gauge is a very light recoiling gun and normally more than enough for knockdown targets. It's very popular with the very competitive shooters, shooters with physical impairments and men and women who can't handle the recoil of the generic factory ammo offered by various makers (1 or 1 1/8 ounces of shot between 1150-1200 fps). I'll note that nothing smaller then a 20 gauge is allowed in SASS aside from .410's for children.

I'm not a hunter and mostly I shoot skeet with some 5 stand or sporting clays. For me 1 oz at 1200 fps will normally work for 99% of the targets.

I don't consider myself very recoil sensitive, but there are a fair number of people who are and factory 16 gauge and 20 gauge can be uncomfortable, especially in a gun sized down for the smaller gauge.

Not every one can afford multiple shotguns and a 12 is easily the most flexible of the shotgun gauges loading down or up as needed

I started using 3/4 oz in 12ga years ago. mainly because I wanted a cheap skeet load that was low pressure for all my old guns. All I had were 12's. I shot low gun skeet. One night I was at a practice with our local collegiate team and they needed someone to fill out a trap squad. All I had in the truck was a 1902 O grade LC. At 16yds I kept up with them and they were all amazed I shot that well with a Damascus sxs well over 100 years old and 3/4 oz loads. Last year I won a game that used a regular trap house, that you stood behind and then 6 other traps in a circle with about a 35 yard radius. Everyone was shooting sxs, that's how we roll. The talk before shooting everyone said you needed tight chokes and at least 71/2 shot heavy loads. I didn't want to shoot because I was using an AyA XXV with open chokes and 3/4 oz #8 shot. It came down to the last shot to win and I did. When I told the trappers what I was using and they couldn't believe it. If I'm on the target will break out to about 20yd trap. That is probably because I don't know what that sight picture should look like. I started being cheap but it seems to work.

Competitive rules specify the max legal load you can use.
Scores went up when the 12 ga load was dropped to 24g

In .410 there is a 50% advantage to using 3/4oz vs 1/2oz

Outside of sanctioned events, I vote for using whatever brings the greatest confidence.

We started 3/4oz 12ga loads to conserve shot.

Then I bought a lifetime shot supply so upped to 7/8 & 1oz 12ga loads.

My friend still chooses to shoot the 3/4oz 12ga shells because he hates recoil. He's plenty satisfied with how they break clays. I was also when I was using them myself.

The reasons are pretty simple for most folks. Saving lead that can be hard to come by, saving money that is always hard to come by. Then there is space savings and not needing 1/2 dozen reloading presses for shotguns is a good thing for both the pocketbook and the benches. The last thing I need in my basement is 4 times more wads and hulls than I already have.

And last, but not least, shooting the guns I like to shoot for ducks, pheasants, and everything else with lighter loads makes for enjoyable summer shooting that helps keep me familiar with a smaller set of stock drops and cast offs that I will be using in the fall for hunting.

I'd rather have only a dozen shotguns to go with the 3-4 dozen rifles than the other way around. Just what works for me.

I generally agree with Stan on this one, although I do load 7/8oz 12 for my one and only Damascus barrel Parker. I figure it will outlive me at 5,400 psi. Those same loads through a M-21 skeet gun prove perfectly satisfactory for skeet.

Started loading a 3/4 oz. 20 at 1150 fps for a light SxS that seemed to spread fire with standard loads. When I tried those in a K-20, they were so pleasant that I bought another case of those green wads. Now the problem is finding International or Green Dot.

The powder companies suck.

The powder companies do suck, especially Alliant.

I started shooting 3/4 oz in a 12 a few years ago when shot became difficult to get. That load will stretch a bag of shot and break targets fine. I stopped using that load ( and this may sound odd) because the recoil is nothing. I need more “feedback” from my gun than what the recoil of a 3/4 oz 12 gauge load will give. I use 7/8 oz low(er) pressure loads in my old guns.

Years ago I gave a 12 ga. Beretta gas auto to my 12 year old stepson and loaded 3/4 oz. light recoiling ammo. The stock was trimmed and barrel length reduced as he was small framed at the time. To show it wasn't just "kid's" ammo, I shot the same out of my Rem. 3200. He and I killed plenty of doves with the load. Shooting 3/4 oz. out of an 8 lb. shotgun was a pleasant experience. Gil

(1) How far do you think a 3/4 oz. load will break targets on edge with 100% reliability? I need a load that will do that at 50-60 yards with certainty. If I decide to limit myself to closer ranges I use a lesser gauge with a lesser payload, willingly. But, I shoot sporting clays on some tough courses. I am certain 1 1/8 oz. load of 7 1/2s at 1175 fps will do that at 50-60 yards. I use .410s a good deal for doves. I know with 100% certainty how far a .410 will reliably kill a dove. It is a 35 yard gun, maximum.

(2) I understand 100% about the "feedback" (recoil) issue. It is very disconcerting for a load to have too little recoil in my 12 ga. guns.

That's not simple, for me, Steve. Regardless how many shotguns you own, why would you want to shoot 3/4 oz. loads in a 12, when statistics prove that a 1 oz. load would kill targets or birds more reliably at "distance"? When I shoot clays I want smoke, not a chip. Do you limit yourself to a certain distance for both, and if so, what is that distance?

Still trying to understand my friend, not argue.

Stan, you know folks hunt birds with .410s and 28s, so why NOT hunt them with light loads in a 12 gauge?

If you need more or just want more, then have at it. But why worry so much about what others shoot? You wouldn't think twice about someone hunting grouse or even pheasants with a 20 gauge, probably using 7/8 oz loads.

Not everyone is a sky blaster.

Back about 11 or 12 years ago when I started shooting Sporting Clays and Skeet, I used standard factory 12 gauge target loads - 1 1/8 ounce.

I got a super good deal on a 12 gauge MEC Sizemaster and started loading my own. I downsized to 1 ounce and then 7/8 ounce and then 3/4 ounce. I then went one step further and started loading and shooting 1/2 ounce 12 gauge loads. I had them tested by Tom Armbrust 9 years ago this month. Pressure around 6,000 psi and the speed is about 1350 fps. Been shooting 1/2 ounce 12 gauge loads ever since at the rate of about 4,000 per year.

For Skeet and the Sporting Clays course at my club, there isn't a target thrown that can't be broken if you hit it. Correct, it doesn't smoke 'em but they do break if you hit them.

The old gents that I shoot with don't keep score and no big deal if you miss. More of a social event than a shooting event. I don't hunt anymore.

And I don't mind getting twice as many loads out of a bag of shot. I do shoot 20 gauge too and hand load 1/2 ounce in that gauge also.

One of our club's top notch trap shooters usually goes 25 straight in trap. I had him shoot a round with my 1/2 ounce loads. He broke 24 and didn't know if that missed bird was the ammo or him. He was delighted with the lack of recoil. Me too!

Distance is not an issue for me when I hunt Blue Grouse, less than an ounce of shot is plenty for those fragile birds. I can never recall needing or wanting more payload when after grouse, the limiting factor is usually the foliage and terran, not distance. Blues are small as well, if you want to eat them you can't put too much shot into them.

I shoot clays very informally and for fun not scores, how far out I can break one is more a factor of choke, not that much in my Holland, light mod in the left barrel. If I was serious about breaking clays and scores I would not be shooting an open choked SxS in the game, it is what I have so it is what I use.

Interesting, Bill. My club has two sporting ranges, the red and the blue courses. The blue is what most accomplished sporting shooters would consider soft. The red is much more challenging, with some long stuff on edge. I enjoy it so much more. Unlike y'all we do keep score, and are trying hard to beat each other. There are three of us that can carry the day, on any particular day, and the competition is tough. We enjoy that, ribbing each other about misses and trying to interrupt the shooter's concentration by joking at critical moments, and planting negative thoughts. There is no way that a 100 straight could be shot on that course with a 3/4 oz. load, IMO. It's doubtful that a 90 could be.

I shoot a 9 lb. Perazzi and want to utilize it to it's fullest potential. For me, that's with 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. loads at about 1150-1175 fps. No recoil to speak of in that gun. When I shoot my vintage doubles I drop to the lower end of the "chart", per gauge, that I posted in my initial post.

Thanks for the comments. I'm trying hard to understand, it's just way out of my paradigm.

I hurt my right shoulder years ago, the doctor looked at it and said it was a bad muscle strain, told me of some exercises to do but now arthritis is setting in and still have problems with it. I had read about a gentleman on here I believe who was using 3/4 oz. loads and he loved it. I forgot the reason he switched but I decided to try some. I don't shoot half as much as most of you here but I am more than satisfied with the results. If I am not mistaken this same gentleman patterned these loads and found they were doing just as good as a 1 oz. load. He had a theory that the 3/4 oz. load stayed tighter than the 1 oz. load using the same gun at the same distance. I think he did 1 1/ 8 oz. also and stated the same thing, he said there were less "flyers" in the 3/4 oz.load because of less pellet interference. I can't substantiate that but as the saying goes "if I do my job right it does it's."

Well, Stan, since this started out as a 12ga thread I hesitated to chime in because I’m a 16ga guy. But now that it’s spread out, I can give you my reasoning for shooting 3/4 oz loads exclusively. For decades I was a 1 oz fellow - period. But some time pre-COVID reloading components started getting hard to come by and concurrently my cervical spine began to protest even modest 1oz loads. I couldn’t shoot 50 rounds without beginning to experience numbness in my trigger hand. I briefly transitioned through 7/8 oz loads but settled on low pressure, low speed 3/4 oz loads (6200 & 1150) and haven’t looked back. As others have said, when I’m “on”, the targets break or the birds fall. I have not done the math but the average age of the SxS’s in my safe is definitely over 100 years old so starting the lighter loads to slower speeds keeps the gun and the gunner happy longer. I used to be a 1000 round/year shooter but that hasn’t happened since COVID began and probably won’t ever again as powder availability now is the issue with wads not far behind (DR 16’s). I am adjusting and working on alternate loads but climbing costs continue to work against me. Quality of shooting these wonderful old doubles hasn’t gone down but quantity sure has.

FCF, Down Range keeps folks on the hook about the DR16 re-start. The 16 ga. forum has many Doubting Thomases. Gil

I hope this answers your question: I had to use tighter chokes in my DT10 to get solid breaks at the longer distances to which you are referring since pellet count is, obviously, much lower in a 3/4 oz load. Now, I rarely see on edge 60 yard crossers at the ranges I shoot, and whether you can hit those type targets reliably is up to you to determine for yourself. When I got a 28 gauge OU a few years ago, my scores on local ranges varied little from my 12 gauge scores. And you know yourself a 28 will break targets a long ways away. So, if you use a tight choke in your 12 and do your part a 3/4 oz load in your target gun should break those long targets. Have fun. Ed

Stan might know this but I wonder if more than a few shooters take into account shot drop at 50, 60 yards and greater range. It is real. Consider that your pattern is expanding and falling from the second it exits the barrel. Mostly the expanding pattern corrects for the pattern dropping but once you get much past 40 yards the pattern expansion starts to get too thin around the edges to make up for the lower point of pattern impact.

Years ago I had a friend shooting lead shot, who could kill ducks pass shooting at 75-80 yards. Ducks cut the corner of our field and were flying within about a ten yard wide highway. Directly behind our blind heading to a pond in the field. He had an Ithaca Mag10 loaded with 2 1/8 ounce lead shot at a hot back then 1300fps. We patterned that gun at 40, 50, 60 and 70 yards. He knew the pattern size and the drop at those ranges. He taped a cheat sheet to his shooting bag. 70 yards he allowed for three feet drop. By trial and error he got so good he could kill two out of three ducks at 70 yards. He explained he used 14 feet of lead with 3 feet hold over the flight line. I borrowed his gun and killed the second and fourth duck I shot at. I forgot to hold over on the third shot and got nothing. He said, and I agree I did not have enough lead on the first shot. I wish we could use lead shot these day. Our best loads were whimpy by todays standards.

I'm with Stanton on this one. For me, it is not about cost or recoil. I realize some of us are on a budget. Others may have an injury or are at an advanced age in life where recoil is a genuine concern. Using 3/4 oz. in a 12 gauge will definitely save you money. However, whether you are shooting clays or live birds I want a decent amount of shot in the air. if you shoot competition you will understand why. 1 1/8 ounce of shot in a 12 gauge just "feel right" to me. I shoot all the gauges as well including 4 and 8 gauge. I shoot 1 1/8 ounce in a 12 gauge for the same reason I shoot 1/2 ounce in a .410 bore. Can you imagine shooting 1/4 ounce in a .410 gun? Doesn't make sense does it? When it comes to pattern and pure enjoyment I prefer shooting a light 10 at everything. Live birds get 1 1/4 ounce of English 7's with black powder or smokeless. When shooting clays I like using short 12 gauge inserts in my 10 with 1 1/8 ounce of 8's or 9's depending whether I am shooting sporting clays or skeet. Can't beat the pattern characteristics of a 10 bore period...well that is not entirely true as the 8 gauge is slightly better but not very practical. The old guys knew that back in the day. The extra weight doesn't bother me as a heavier gun settles into the hands better for me anyway.

Jon, a gentleman I know quite well teaches how to shoot sporting clays and at this one shoot the clay was launched going parallel along a tree line had to be out there 50+ yards and I asked him what the lead would be and he said 14 feet. Since you posted about 14 foot lead on ducks I wanted to know what does 14 feet equate to from the barrel to the clay or duck? Years ago when I used to skeet shoot I knew a fellow that was a Class A skeet shooter and I asked him what the lead was at No. 4 Station and he said 4 feet. I could break it but not all the time and I never remember leading it 4 feet, maybe a foot and a half from the muzzle.
I finally did break that clay at 50+ yards but it was not a bus length lead, and it was with a 3/4 oz. of # 7 1/2"s and held over a little. Like I said I don't shoot a lot and haven't shot in 4 years due to both knees replaced and now arthritis but getting back into it.

Good for you! Keep after it, things will improve.

Ducks over open water have pretty consistent flying speeds as they skirt the decoys.
You can take a shot at one sight picture, and hammer them on the second just by adding more lead.
If I were ever to post my videos, you would here me telling gunners “2more feet, or 5 more feet…” after their first shot splashes behind the duck.

People shoot shotguns like rifles and miss miles behind.

I thought we were talking about field guns. A 9+ lb gun soaks up a lot of recoil. I only use the 3/4oz load for woodcock. Pheasants get 1 to 11/4 oz. For clays more choke helps for longer shots. Around here sporting courses are short, skeet in the woods. Just to satisfy your curiosity try some 3/4 oz loads when you aren't with your friends or try to get them to give you a couple bird handicap. Use a tight chokes and see what happens. You may be surprised if you don't talk yourself into missing because you don't trust the load.

I am not sure but I may have started this 3/4 oz in 12 ga load business. For years I shot 7/8 oz in a light Britt 12 and clays and most birds. I would up it to 1 oz for pheasant. Just prior to covid I was shooting and at the time the closest place didn't have a delay on the thrower and I was often shooting alone. Well I developed bad mounting through rushing my shot and ended up with a flinch. Since I was already shooting 3/4 oz in a 20 ga and breaking most of the birds when I did it properly , I figured I could go to that load in a12 . I am trying to go easy on a 1905 Scottish RA that is about 6 lbs 7 oz. Most of the clays I shoot are recreational and inside 40 yards.

At the West London Shooting School (WLSS) 12 ga, 3/4 oz is all they use for practice.
That includes practicing tall driven birds off the towers.
It is a useful training aid.

Practice and training is one thing. Real life usage is quite another. GIs used to practice with Springfield 03s that were chambered for the .22 LR. Does that make them sufficient for real use in battle? You can come up with better than that, CZ.

My initial post said nothing about field guns, Mark. Loads and gauges only.

Not everyone shots competition, so no need for "standard" load sizes.
I quit 3 yrs ago with 80k registered sc targets. Now shoot for my enjoyment only. Love the 3/4 loads in my 20ga ou. Challenge my other "duffer" friends with their 12 bores & larger loads.
If you need to shoot larger loads have at it, I understand. Just let me enjoy my 3/4 fun loads.

Nobody's wanting to stop anyone from shooting what they want, Lucky1. Fun is what it's all about, or should be, for all of us. I'm just trying to get a complete understanding of reasons why people shoot 3/4 oz. loads in a 12 ga. gun. I shoot 3/4 oz. loads, too, in 28s and .410s.

So far what I seem to see is that those who want to use 3/4 oz. loads in a 12 have convinced themselves that they break targets, or kill birds, as well as they NEED them to. And, that's fine. No problem with that. When you're picking butterbeans out of your garden you use a basket, not a combine.

I cannot be convinced that they will perform equal to a 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. load in ALL circumstances, and no one so far has tried to. However, if someone finds that they perform well enough in THEIR realm of circumstance, more power to them. All good.

I agree with you Stan, a 3/4 oz. load will never perform equal to a 1 oz. and never to a 1 1/8 oz. load but it is fun breaking targets with the 3/4 oz. load. IF others seeing you braking targets and know that you are using that load especially at Trap, they can't believe it.


Stan if you like to watch someone shoot a .410 really good watch Carlo Rizzini at Casa Rizzini TV. He has won a few championships shooting the .410. One gun that he shoots quite a bit is a Perazzi O/U with 78 cm barrels (30 1/2") full/full. He shoots a double sometimes.

Yes, I have watched several of his videos, David. They are very good. Parabola knows of my fondness for the .410 and posts links to new ones occasionally.

When I said 14 feet it was about three full gun lengths. These birds were not true crossers like station four at skeet but slightly incoming so they hit the field at 75-80 yards and never got closer than 65-70 yards. They were going to the exact same spot, a pond we kept in the field as a duck bank, to keep birds in the area. We never gunned the pond and let the birds remain undisturbed once they landed. They were consistently flying the same route over and over again and it was driving us nuts. As most duck hunters, who watch birds fly just out of range, we turned several ideas over about how we could shoot them.

Our lease stated we could only hunt from the fixed blinds. So moving closer was not an option. On average we would see 50 birds, mostly singles and pairs, fly the exact same pathway. Mike had a new to him, Ithaca Mag10 which he used with great effect on geese. So he loaded up some loads for ducks. His first seven or eight shots over a couple morning were clean misses. So he went back to the basics. Started out with about ten feet of perceived lead and added more ever shot. His first kill was on a bird which flew about 100 yards after the shot, then folded dead in the air. We could watch the ducks for about half a mile as the crossed the field beyond where we pass shot them. So I doubt many were well hit, that did not die before making it to the pond. He found the sweet spot of about 14’ or three long guns but also found he needed hold over to hit them. We figured the shot was falling about three feet, maybe four. If we just used proper frontal lead we rarely killed the bird, never really for me.

That farm is now filled with mega mansions and no shots have been fired on it in 30 plus years. What a shame but I still have those memories. Pass shooting birds is a great pastime which I wish I could experience again. But you need either luck or the perfect set of circumstances.

Thanks Jon, I never was much for duck hunting occasionally jump-shot some while wood cock hunting 30+ years ago. Where I lived originally in north New Jersey in the city had to hitch hike or my father drove us to hunt when I was in my early teens. Plenty of wood cock near this one river that had a lot of bottom land, high grass but then open land with trees and that is where the wood cock loved, you could see their droppings and bill marks looking for worms. Had a nice setter back then for bird hunting but didn't care much about retrieving them.

You and Stan shot a lot of skeet, what was your lead at the #4 station? Like I stated before this skeet shooter told me 4 feet, but I can't fathom 4 feet from the muzzle to target at 21 yards, I believe.

Late to the party here. I've been following this string with much interest. As far as targets go, I probably haven't shot enough of them (yet) to have a well-formed opinion, but on game I'm pretty adamant about using adequate loads. I've had several lighter (& even Damascus-barrelled) guns over the years that I've used to hunt in the uplands, and accordingly, I have been a bit sensitive about abusing them with overly-heavy loads. For a while, I was using both 7/8 & even 3/4-ounce RST loads on ruffed grouse (all this was in 16-gauge) and for the most part, these "lighter" loads seemed to work allright. But... after a few seasons of this I did start to notice the occasional unexplained "miss" or inexplicable loss of a bird (hit but kept going). Initially, I attributed it to my own faults (bad gun mount, poor focus, lifted-head, etc.) but that (well, most of it) largely went away when I went back to just shooting 1-ounce of shot in my 16-gauge. On targets and "for fun" I would think that the lighter loads are a nice option (& perhaps necessary in some cases), but on game I'm looking for that "blue-spark" of death and for all the usual reasons (but mostly for the quick and humane end of my prey species of choice).

12-gauge guns are in a different universe for me. They are the "standard" for lethality in a shotgun (at least in my book). For targets...God Bless You(!) & then shoot what works for you. But even with 12-bores, I don't scrimp on my loads for game. I now use an ounce of shot for hunting at a minimum, and even 1 1/8 ounce (if I can justify it). Now... I do have some new-to-me guns that might get started-out on 7/8-ounce loads (& maybe even 3/4 ounces at the range first) but once I've satisfied myself that they're up to the task-at-hand, they'll likely be digesting 1-ounce of shot regularly (on game) after that.

Edit: I've thought about this for a little bit (in the shower...where I do my best thinking) and maybe, just maybe, a 12-bore is "efficient" enough to maintain its lethality in lighter loads. I will be trying a few 7/8th ounce loads in that very light (6lb) English BLE (of my son's) this Fall. A worthy experiment, I should hope.

Lead depends on shooting style. I can break high four at least four different ways. Sustained lead where I start ahead of the bird, you pull out in front, get your proper lead and maintain it as you pull the trigger and continue that lead well past when the bird breaks. Swing through lead, where as you pull through the bird, pull the trigger as you accelerate the gun past the bird. I can spot shoot the bird without moving my gun. Just get the birds flight line and pull the trigger at a set distance before the bird reaches your gun, a timing shot. And last, my all time favorite way to shoot. I flinch, right before I am about to pull the trigger, scare my squad mate into hysterics, recover and track the bird down for a very late shot. Sometimes I use the flinch and spot shooting technique together if I am lucky enough to flinch in the right direction.

I am sure others have their own way to do it. Being able to shoot the bird multiple ways comes in handy. In the field I rarely get to use sustained lead but often a shorter lead with a pull away component. From a mathematical point you can compute the needed lead at station four high bird as 34-39” depending on bird launch speed. But most can not accurately judge 34-39” at 21 yards so it becomes personal. What do you see? I’ve known good shooters who only see daylight in front of birds and others who look like 5hey will ride a bird off into the sunset.

Thanks Jon I appreciate your time in telling me this. I mostly shoot trap where I live now, the one place that had a skeet field but I don't know what they are doing there now.

What would be the benefit of bickering about this?
There has been plenty already posted about why people use the payload they use.

I shoot .410 class in many tournaments every year following NSCA rules (2 1/2” and 1/2oz) whether required or not. I take limited game with the .410 because my first shot kill ratio is lower than shooting the 20 w/ 7/8 oz loads.

At my club (which has no presentations beyond 50 yds) the choice to shoot 3/4oz loads in 12 ga is either economy, recoil, or strength. Those are reasons I’ve heard people give, and see no reason not to believe them.

Lots of older guys say they can shoot more shooting the light loads.
I’m glad they come out to shoot. Whatever their chosen payload.
Certainly for me, cumulative recoil starts to effect me at about 150 rds or so.

I no longer do it, (FITASC requiring factory cartridges), but long ago I remember carefully analyzing the economics of shooting the light 12 gauge loads. Finding they took more powder to bring the light load up to speed, (can’t say what it’s like today) but l remember those light loads were actually more expensive per cartridge than the standard one oz.

Because both lead and powder are much more expensive today than they used to be, I don’t have a perfect knowledge of the economics any longer. Primers and wads being approximately the same cost across load sizes. Perhaps the economics have reversed. IDK.

For me, if you are getting out and enjoying the shooting sports, I care little about payload.

I probably see about 3 ft. on station 4, David, using pull away technique. I do know it's easy for me to outrun it with a little light .410, and miss ahead of it.

Stan, I agree that a guy oughta use shells appropriate for the gauge. Years ago, I tried 1&7/8 oz TSS turkey loads in my 5 lb 6 oz 20 gauge. The recoil was substantial, but it didn't pattern that great either. I went back to the more gauge appropriate 1&5/8 oz load and have stuck with that one since.

It's good to use the shells that a gun is designed to use.

If you like 3/4 or 7/8 ounce shot then go shoot it and enjoy it. It is all about enjoyment. We are not feeding our families doing this. Shotgun shooter get just a squirrel(ly) as a rifle shooter who stress about that extra 50 fps or worries about the group size being 1.25" in stead of under 1" at 100 yards. I love it when they say that .25" difference, in group size, would be too great at 300 or 400 yards. Heck, most of those guys will never shoot anything at 300 or 400 yards and in the field there are no benches to shoot off. It is all in their heads. Load what you want and shoot it. If you miss I'll tell you you were just behind it anyways.;)

Sad to say Coosa, is that most S X S shooters don't even know if the loads they're shooting regulate in their S X S gun. I've found that lots of vintage S X Ss prefer a certain payload at a certain velocity, and loads a lot faster, lighter, etc. will NOT regulate, but will crossfire badly, or vice versa. I'm certain I have several that would not even come close to being regulated with 3/4 oz. loads, at any reasonable velocity.

I've not had that problem with the vintage guns that I have patterned, which surprises me to some degree. The only double that I have had that would not regulate was a Darne. It would not regulate with anything from 7/8 to 1.5 oz., and all of those were equally awful across a range of velocities below 1300 fps.

I discussed patterning at my club not long ago. The other shooters were all SERIOUS shooters of skeet, trap and sporting clays. None had ever patterned their guns. I pattern all of mine with the loads I intend to use. I have found a few that were off a bit and one that was off a lot. I've not had a problem with light loads but you never know. I'm not too serious since I'll shoot a tightly choked gun at skeet because I just feel like shooting that gun that day. I'm very surprised that these serious shooters who own expensive target guns with expensive chokes screwed in the barrels never test their patterns.

I generally don’t pattern any gun unless I’m not breaking targets. If it breaks targets, it’s good to go.

This is how bad it can be. Several years ago I determined to make a 20 ga. Philly Fox Sterlingworth Ejector my go-to quail and woodcock gun. I had heretofore universally used 7/8 oz. loads in my 20s, so I was determined to do so in the SWE. They cross-fired to the tune of 8" at 25 yards, each. I sent it to Dean Harris to have him work his magic. He called to tell me that it regulated perfectly with 1 oz. loads at about 1150-1165 fps. I was, and am still, amazed that nothing more was needed to get the gun to regulate both barrels. Years later, it still is spot on with those loads, and no others that I have been able to determine. From 8" to dead-on, at 25 yards, is a lot of moving for nothing to have been done but adjust the load.

What percent of shotgunners know that about each of their guns ......... 1 percent? I doubt it.

I know exactly what my Holland was regulated for, it says so on the charge card in the case, 1&1/16th oz of British #6 shot.

In my younger years I would buy a sxs and just go out and shoot birds. I usually did great even with a gun that didn't fit me very well. It wasn't until 25 years later after I became a member of a local gun club that I started testing my reloads in my guns. With some guns I couldn't figure out why I was missing certain birds on skeet. Well...now I know. Like Stan said, certain guns like certain loads. Sometimes you are changing the payload and sometimes you are altering the powder charge, type of powder, etc. How do you find all of this out? Go to the pattern board and also use a chronograph! I owned well over 200 sxs guns and over the years I have only kicked 2 or 3 to the curb. Testing is crucial to get the most out of your gun. On the down side, you might just find out like I did that some of your favorite loads you have been using for 20 years do not perform the way you thought they did! Experimentation is part of the fun in my book.

I don't pattern shotguns.

As a lefty I quickly learned to pattern guns as most SxS guns shoot to the right for me. I had to determine how much to bend them to the left to get them on target. In the process I also discovered that many guns shoot low or high, and a few guns have divergent barrels. The worst I had was an AYA No 4 Deluxe. The left barrel shot eight inches to the left of the right barrel at 30 yards, and it got worse the further away the target was. That gun was not correctable and was sold to a man who put iron sights on the shortened barrel and made it into a pretty good slug gun. If you don't pattern the gun you won't know if the gun shoots where you look and that the barrels shoot together. The math is simple to do and a good stock bender can correct most off shooting pretty easily. I always pattern at 20 yards from my eye.

Yep, which shows just how easy it is to get in some shooter's heads and get a few birds on them. Oldest trick in the book. Some are easier to screw with than others.

My suggestion to you is to never check the fluid levels in your vehicle. Might cause you to get your mind completely off your driving, and have a wreck. Don't ever check your blood pressure, either. Might cause you to worry too much about it.

One reason a shotgun's patterns should be checked is to instill confidence in your gun. Confidence is a great aid to the best competitive shooting. NOT knowing is what "gets in MY head".

I' was first introduced to 3/4 oz RSTs by Morris Baker while at Hausmans. Also have had some from NobelSport. Certainly soft shooting and no muzzle flip. Seems to do a great job on close in clays. But where I've really used it has been shooting quail in my 6.5 lb 12 gauge. Easy to get a second shot off and doesn't damage the birds. Turns my 12 gauge into a 28 gauge. I'm amused by people who think they need an ounce of shot to kill a 6 ounce bird. That's like throwing 15 pounds of lead at a hundred pound deer.

I've never patterned light loads in any of my SxS guns, but I have tested 8 different guns with the heavy TSS turkey loads. None of them would shoot either barrel to POA. In 7 of them, the right barrel shot to the right and the left barrel to the left. One kinda cheap Spanish gun cross fired every load that I tried in it. It was made in the 60s, but looked new. I suspect that everyone who ever owned it couldn't hit a thing with it and gave up using it. It had fixed chokes, but was worthless the way it was so I took a file to it and got it to shoot a TSS load straight. It's now my backup turkey gun and has killed several turkeys. Of course, that load is the only thing it will center.

My theory is that a SxS gun can only shoot one load perfectly. The results might be acceptable with other loads, but only one can be right.

I guess so.

Personally, I don’t care to have any shotguns that I have to “adapt” to. If they don’t shoot where I’m looking, something has got to change. I’m more concerned with target line, speed, distance etc. to compensate for abnormalities in barrel regulation.

I see two reasons:

One is that a person has a nice gun of whatever gauge that they really want to use, and realizes they don't need the full gauge-correct load. They opt to skimp on recoil and save a bit of money if they reload.

The second is the person who sees it as a challenge to accomplish the most with the least, e.g. using a .410 in the field, 7/8 oz for trap, etc.

That's why I use the same load every time I shoot. I don't jump around using 7/8- then 3/4 then 1 oz. just to save money on shot. I use 1 1/8 oz. of shot in every 12 gauge I shoot and I have been using the same formula for 25 years. If I had one that didn't shoot where I looked I would know right off. I have only had one gun that didn't shoot where I looked. I could tell after a couple of boxes. THAT is the one I patterned, actually. I got rid of it. If I shoot my 20 gauge, I know where it shoots and I use the same reloading formula for that gun. If I can't run 25 straight at trap or skeet, then I know it's me. Not the gun. Sporting clays? A different animal. The guns I hunt with? They shoot where I look and I use the same formula when I hunt that I do when I shoot clay targets. I guess I have always been able to do that. Works for me.

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OK Jimmy, I’m confused…you said you’ve always been able to adapt to a way a gun shoots. But you sold a gun that didn’t shoot where you looked. So you couldn’t adapt to that gun??

Yes. That's the one I patterned. That's why I never pattern a gun anymore. Lesson learned.

Owning and using a double gun that is not regulating, and “adapting to it” makes as much sense as buying a rifle that has adjustable sights and never shooting to see where it hits until you figure out it is off by a few inches, then using Kentucky windage to adapt to it, instead of adjusting the sights.

A shotgun can be made to shoot to POA by several different means, and a S x S can often be made to regulate with a certain load. That’s just accepted fact. You obviously enjoy running against the wind, JimmyW. Carry on.

You said in your first post that there wouldn't be any belitting by you, whatever I said. Hmmmmm. IGNORE LIST

I had a K80 that doubled …… I sure as heck couldn’t “adapt” to that!! LOL

Well, Gil, thanks to a heads up I just hit the jackpot. The DR16’s came into stock at Precision Reloading yesterday but sold out before I even knew it. However, one of the 16ga guys let us know that a second batch came into inventory today and my order just went through! 🎉

Now let’s get some International and Universal on the shelves. 😉

Not quite, Jimmy. I said I would not belittle anyone's opinions about appropriate payloads for specific gauges. I don't mind you quoting me, just don't misquote me.

Quit being so nice Stanley....people may think it's odd, like there's something wrong with you.

Not quite, Jimmy. I said I would not belittle anyone's opinions about appropriate payloads for specific gauges. I don't mind you quoting me, just don't misquote me.

In your very first post, you said--"There won't be any belittling of anyone's opinion by me, whatever they are. I just like to understand the motivations of different folks." UNQUOTE........... So, let's put it this way- I have only had one gun in my life that I could not shoot comfortably. That is due to the fact that the drop on the buttstock was so bad and the gun did not come close to fitting me properly, that the gun hurt my face and shoulder when I shot it. And I could barely get those beads on the barrel lined up correctly. I do not want to shoot clay targets and try to remember how every single barrel on every single gun goes to my head every time I pull the trigger. And I have always had the ability to figure out how a gun shoots without using a pattern board. And I always felt that I was a pretty decent shooter without doing that. So let's just say THAT is what motivates me- having that ability to figure out how a gun shoots after a few rounds. Now I will go ahead and put you back on my ignore list, and I won't see what you say unless somebody else quotes you. That will stop a lot of conflict. Have a nice day.

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The above doesn't make any sense Jimmy. You eliminated part of my post. What are you trying to say?