doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Disaster struck yesterday

I don't post here often but thought I'd relate this story. Beautiful fall day yesterday and so went to the gun club for a day's outing at clay targets. On the second round of skeet my Winchester SX-1 broke down but not to worry I had my Fox Sterlingworth with me. I continued on and all the birds were breaking. I was down one when we got to the last station. My shooting partner and I sometimes shoot doubles at low 8 this time of year. So when it was my turn, I called for a pair. The Fox doubled, recoil was horrendous even with light 1oz loads. When my head began to clear I looked down at the Fox. The stock was cracked at the wrist and the frame was split in two. Needless to say I was more than a bit shaken. Fortunately no one was hurt although my cheek is still sore from the pounding it took from the recoil. I can't say for sure but I seldom miss low 8 and so I'd guess that last target was turned to dust with a double dose of shells so at least the Fox went out in style I guess. I have no idea how this could have happened and I'm just sick at the loss of this gun. I shot it well on most occassions and it was a great deal of fun to be able to use an 84 year old gun. Nothing was wrong with the shells, of that I am certain. I like to replace the gun with another sxs but my faith in older guns is a bit shaken so not sure what I will do. Anyway if anyone has any idea why the gun would have doubled and if this would have been enough to break the frame, I would appreciate hearing what you think. I should add that the gun was refinished earlier this year and the frame recasehardened. It was done locally by an experienced gunsmith who advertises nationally and has had a lot of experience at this. Any chance that this could have contributed to what happened? I'm not computer literate enough to post any pictures but any ideas on what happened here would be appreciated. Thanks

Had an old Utica S/W which doubled with annoying regularity before I fixed it. Also 1 oz. loads. I would call the recoil notice-getting rather than horrendous but I managed to bloody the web of my thumb once. The action bar of the wobbly old thing didn't even notice so I'm thinking what you're thinking-- maybe rehardening is bad news in more than the distortion and warpage dept.

jack

Bummer. Seems like we have heard of more than one Fox with a cracked frame?? Wasn't there one on Ebay recently?

What kind of shells were you using? Very odd. I know shooting both barrels simulteneously is not good for the gun, but never heard of a catastrophic failure just because of doubling......

Mike Doerner

Here's the eBay item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fox-Sterlingworth-12...bayphotohosting

And a quote from the original thread here:
In that closeup of the receiver, the "Sterlingworth' marking, wriggle cut borders and metal polish in general look kind of washed out/ refinished. Perhaps a gun that was refinished and case hardened at one time with not so stellar results. Overhard, possibly a small fracture from assembly or during disassembly at another time (trying to remove the hammer pin without removing it's set screw?).

I've been told on more than one occasion by more than one gunsmiths reputation I respect that it's not a wise thing to re-caseharden doubles just for cosmetics sake. Old lever actions is another story.

The case hardening certainly didn't cause the gun to double but it may have made the frame brittle which caused it to fail under the stress of the double load. JMHO.

I hope Michael isn't reading this. You're talking about the finest gun in the world here...of course I don' 'no nothin'...just shoot an old P Gun...pounded for 100 years and still as tight as you wish it was. Tight. Right. Good Night.

AFG. Very sad that your Fox'Let-Go'. As to why, both sears came out of 'bent'hence the double dicharge.Why they both lifted at the same time, several reasons come to mind. The way I would start to find out that reason,call Abe Chaber 1st, he is the"Sounding-Board" for most of my Mechanical Problems.The artical in Shooting Sportsman 2 Issues ago gave a very good assessmentof his capabilities.I would like to see a photo of the split action, I have a collection of"Blown-up" Guns & Rifles. Its not always Pilot Error! were you shooting Factory or Re-Loaded shells?Several other questions need tobe answered to start assessing the problem. Glad you didnot sustain any damage to yourself. I have a Holland& Holland DB Rifle that lost 2/3rds of its left BBL,and took the owners 2.1/2 fingers with it.I used a photo of a Trap Grade LCSmith thatblew the1st 3.1/2"of the RT BBL.over the heads of the shooters on Stations4&5, In Shotgun Tech. MMcI&DTrev. country Sport press."Shure happens fast, dont it Vern"! Not making 'Light of the situation", but in my50 yrsof building these 'Wonderful Lumps of Steel& wood.....Accidents do happen!! C/C aka DT.

Many years ago an old J Stevens 12ga doubled on me. I was shooting up a tall tree at a squirell & had pulled back trigger. No damage to either gun or me. Found & fixed the problem & shot it "Happily everafter" or until I traded it. Honestly I noticed the noise more than the recoil, & didn't realize what had happened till next shot it snapped on the right barrel & I found the empty in it. I don't recall for sure what load I was shooting but likely 3-1 1/8-6 factory. Had only fired the "One" shot at that tree & reloaded the left bbl. After finding the empty in other bbbl, I knew it had doubled or I had thrown out a live shell & reloaded the wrong bbl. Hadn't gone far so went back & found the "Empty". I doubt very seriously two "Proper" 1oz loads would have done that damage. Suspect either shell or gun problem. I know many phoo-phoo me, but I don't have my guns re-cased.

AFG and Friends:

Looking at this as a systems failure, we can likely point in a direction, if not prove anything.

Current SAAMI standard ammo has a max average pressure of 11,500 psi and the Sterlingworth should handle that with aplomb. Even 2 at the same time, although I wouldnt recommend a steady diet. The barrels didnt blow. The real issue is the creation of excessive bending moment at the standing breech. This produces frame cracking, a la the Ithaca Flues. As you may recall, I have a good deal of interest in the Ithaca Flues frame cracking story. When I was much younger and less informed, I used to pull both triggers on my 20g Flues and fire both barrels at once on purpose, as part of a range firing demonstration at the Scout camp where I was range officer. Never hurt the gun.

The frame "split in two". I interpret that as it parted into a left half and right half. That would suggest that we do not have a bending moment at the standing breech issue, but rather a material flaw in the action, and failure resulting from exposure to excessive recoil, but nonetheless recoil which if the gun were sound, would have been shrugged off.

It sounds like the frame failed. Whether or not this is re-case related or not, there is no way of knowing. Photos of the frame would be VERY helpful. If you find that you do not want the frame, I might be able to have it examined at the Texas A & M Mechanical Engineering Laboratory.

As Miller suggested, perhaps there is more danger in a re-case than suspected, or pehaps this one is just one that wasnt done right. Perhaps we can learn a bit more.

I would also suggest this is an aberration - I wouldnt worry to much about shooting good condition guns with proper ammunition. My Fluzie 20g is still going strong.

Glad you werent injured.

Regards

GKT