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It's a good thing John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and their associates didn't have someone like this yapping incessantly at their heels when they were trying to sell the CONCEPT of democracy in America. In 1776 they lacked a SPECIFIC PLAN, couldn't explain how it would work, certainly had no notion of the eventual cost. And they didn't even have the luxury of successful examples to emulate. Even so, what they said to that point had very 'real value.'

Of course, a lot of the naysayers to democracy held back, whining that "the CONCEPT may be okay, but the devil is in the details." Most contributed nothing to build on. Many ran away, preferring to remain subjects of an oppressive regime.

Fortunately, men who believed in the CONCEPT ignored the naysayers and worked out a lot of the details over the ensuing years. But the SPECIFIC PLAN remains imperfect - we're still working on it today. And we still can't tell you the cost, for some of it will be paid in blood by future generations.

Timid men are always afraid to move from a familiar position, regardless of its disadvantages, and demand to be spoon-fed reassurance before daring to change anything.

Adams, Jefferson et al got together, as I recall my American history, in a little gathering called the Continental Congress. They got pretty darned specific as to why they believed this country ought to separate itself from English rule. Made that pretty plain, in a document called the Declaration of Independence. A dozen or so years later, they got together again and went into even greater detail concerning American democracy, in a document called the Constitution. Each state had the opportunity to look over that document before they ratified it. They knew what powers Congress would have, what powers the president would have, what powers the judiciary would have, what powers were reserved to the states, and what had to be done to ratify the Constitution.

Only someone totally ignorant of American history would say that the founding fathers were only selling a "concept". And to paraphrase a famous line from American political history . . . Jack, I know the founding fathers from history books, and I also know--knew even before you wrote the above, in fact--that you're no Jefferson or Adams.

"Only someone totally ignorant of American history" would conflate 1776 with 1787 and imply that the Founding Fathers waited until a SPECIFIC PLAN was nailed (including how it would work and what it would cost) before trying to sell the CONCEPT of independence and democracy.

I made it quite clear that the Founding Fathers started with a CONCEPT, and began selling it in 1776 - years before a SPECIFIC PLAN could take shape. If they had been afraid to move until all of the questions were answered (and some remain unanswered to this day!), we might still be subjects of the United Kingdom.



Larry, your insistence that a CONCEPT has no value unless a SPECIFIC PLAN is defined (and costed), just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Perhaps you should sneak back to that post on page 20 and change your words - you're good at that. Heck, you're even welcome to uncheck the 'Mark as Edited' box again.

Gee Jack . . . all I did in one case was add a smiley face, I think. Didn't change the meaning of anything; just trying to add a bit of humor to your dour argument. And I note that the post immediately above says "Edited by Jack Maloney". Only a hypocrite would suggest someone else shouldn't edit when he himself does the same thing. Do as I say, not as I do . . . right, Jack? Well, that goes right along with confusing yourself with Adams and Jefferson.

As for the specifics outlined by the founding fathers, my copy of the Declaration of Independence includes over two dozen SPECIFIC reasons why the United States ought to be "free and independent". As to cost, I agree with you that the founding fathers "didn't even have the luxury of successful examples to emulate". You, on the other hand, claim to have all kinds of successful examples to emulate--which clearly removes your lame excuse not to get down to specifics, including cost.

Jack, I'll leave you to put on your powdered wig and do a poor imitation of one of the founders of our country. You've exceeded my humor quota for the day. One more post like either of the last two and I'm likely to hurt myself due to excess laughter.

Ah, Larry - you know what you did, so do I - and so do others on this forum who've been paying attention. That's all that matters, really.