Thanks for you long reply Larry. Some of it shows that you are coming around, and some of it shows that you have missed my point entirely.
I have not posted examples of anti-lead initiatives or support for anti-lead ammunition bans by the Audobon Society in this particular thread. But I have done so here in the very recent past in threads which you participated in. I don't believe that you would be willing to make any substantial wager that representatives of Audobon have not supported lead ammunition bans. They have. I would suggest a substantial wager, but I'll go easy on you. It took less than a minute to find evidence of Audobon support for a lead ammunition ban. Make my next homework assignment a bit more challenging:
http://www.ammoland.com/2013/05/rebuttal-to-audubon-societys-support-for-statewide-leadHere's another from Audobon's own website:
http://ca.audubon.org/banning-lead-ammunition-condor-habitatI know that silt builds up and I know that heavy dense objects sink in mud, silt and water. I also know that wave action from storms, tidal action, etc. is a very powerful force that erodes entire beach fronts and helps to cleave off gigantic icebergs. Roiling up a 2 grain piece of lead shot is nothing compared to what waves can do. I already gave a long dissertation on upheaval from frost, and you can go back and read it again and tell me where I am wrong. I am not suggesting that ducks and geese are still dying from lead shot deposited into their environment decades ago. I am saying that I simply do not believe that huge numbers were dying from lead poisoning when the anti-lead propagandists were using heart wrenching pictures and junk science to make their case. Of course ducks were dying. They have been dying ever since the first duck evolved from whatever prehistoric species they came from.
Listen carefully as I repeat this point. The millions of tons of lead shot that was deposited from the earliest days of market hunting to the Federal ban is still there. It has not gone away. It is in the silt and sand and gravel bottoms of our rivers, lakes, swamps, and ocean shore lines. It is in the water where ducks feed, eat, and drink. Yet strangely, miraculously, remarkably, all those major lead poisoning problems suddenly dropped off the front page as the anti-lead people moved on to seek lead ammunition bans in other areas. They got what they wanted and moved on. I don't care if doves are seen as pests in Argentina. my point was that with all of the lead shot that is deposited in their environment, we would expect to see them on the verge of extinction from lead poisoning if lead shot was really and truly that dangerous.
I agree with what you said in the points you made in excerpts from your articles. But as craigd notes, that's not what you have been saying here so far. I am not alone in noticing that you seemed to be doing more to blame deer hunters and lead bullet fragments than to discredit junk science. We wouldn't be having this endless debate if that was what you were posting earlier. I would simply say +1 Larry! Agree completely.
We have not lost the argument about bad science because our argument was unsound or unproven. We lose it when people we expect would be on our side repeat and support the junk science. Do you want me to to go on forever posting links and proof that much of the anti-lead propaganda... I won't call it science.... is false? What good will that do if you ignore it and keep going back to deer hunters bullet fragments?
I also have to disagree with your contention that there is no reason to go back to past wrongs and try to reverse them. You say that I ASSUME that the ban on lead was based upon propaganda and junk science after I have posted hard evidence to the contrary. I ASSUME nothing. I can't do anything to convince you if you refuse to read it or do a little research for yourself rather than regurgitating information that absolutely is shooting us in the foot.
Forget lost battles? Why? We were able to recoup some of the ground we lost after the Gun Control Act of 1968 got rammed down our throat by sticking together and fighting to reverse bad legislation. I can still remember waiting periods for law abiding citizens to buy a gun, and having to produce identification and sign to purchase .22LR and handgun ammo. I can also remember gun prices going up and firearm manufacturers being forced into bankruptcy by frivolous lawsuits that were banned in the Firearm Owner Protection Act of 1993. Hillary Clinton wants to reverse that policy. The fight to preserve shooting and hunting is a never ending battle.
It's not at all surprising to see King Brown enter this fray with his tired old refrain about the shooting and hunting sports dying within a generation. It's not surprising to see him here supporting the bans on lead ammunition either. King confidently announced that "Lead is Dead" in this forum years ago. I apologize to you Larry, for asking if you were related to him. craigd is very astute to notice that King has obviously done nothing to support or perpetuate the shooting sports, even in his own children and grandchildren. Instead, he has been placing us on life support and is ready to pull the plug when it comes to shooting, hunting, and gun ownership. He knows full well that the number of guns in the U.S has increased by over 50% in the last 10 years... he knows that gun sales are extremely brisk and Gun Manufacturer stocks are one of the best performers in the stock market. He knows ammunition manufacturers can barely keep up with demand. Yet he keeps repeating the same tired refrain in his never ending attempt to undermine us. That's what anti-gun Trolls do.
edit: added a couple links for Larry to prove that Audobon has supported lead ammunition bans.
