If that's not a Greener I'll eat my hat. If not a Greener, then made to look exactly like one. The frame shape, serpentine fences, frame bolsters at the angle of the frame. Even the fancyback design all are exactly like a 45G Greener. The side safety is obvious but the other features say "Greener" just as loud.
Maybe correct; I didn't see a 'caveman' either. Yet, he says it's in a Sauer catalog.
I think he mentioned it was in a new Sauer text. I'd like to see the proofmarks. It's a frame as filed by Bernhard Merkel and I have assumed for some time that he sourced Sauer for the raw forgings and then he himself was sourced for longarms in the white at first and post WWI for firearms in the finished state by the Berlin makers such as Barella, Foerster, Geiger, J.J. Reeb, Ludwig Schiwy, etc. See the banner on Cabela's "Fine Rifles" page and there is a DR with a similar frame. Nice find and I'll have to see if I can get some tube pics.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Look at pic of left side, I can see sign WWGreener.
I don't see it right off but will need to pull the pics into a viewer. But the Germans pretty much ceased sourcing the British in the 1870s or early 1880s. It just doesn't make economic sense for a firm that can do everything inhouse, and has it's backyard as Suhl, to source Greener. Leue had a realtionship w/ Greener, but I think it was purely peddling. Sauer did make some boxlocks on the Facile Princeps and I know of one example that was peddled by Heinrich Scherping. The underside of the frame has similar contours to a version with the Facil Princeps. Sauer #146331 purportedly for the Krupps has similar pins, frame and could be based on the Facile Princips. Regarding a sense of nationalism, I don't think Sauer would have sourced Greener for a frame and then completed the firearm inhouse and gave/sold it to the Krupps.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I saw this piece sell on gunbroker for 2750.00 or so about a month ago. Of course the reason it got my attention was it is a Sauer-Greener...a bit of an oddity to be sure but such an animal is illustrated in Cates book on Sauer. (So this example makes at least two of these Sauer-Greeners known) Not really my cup of tea, as it were, but Sauer (as most folks realize) would make damn near anything the customer wanted. I have seen so many one offs now I rarely question the odd ones anymore. One of the oddist Sauers that I ever saw was a Sauer & Sohn shotgun with Westley Richards top rib extension and lock up, including the same type and shape of top lever. It was unique to say the least. Jeff
I'm curious if Sauer totally manufactured this example inhouse? Right off if it is post WWI, I'd speculate not. Is there anyone in Vegas who can stop by Steve Barnett's table and check the marks, maybe even a pic??
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey,
I'll try and take some photos tomorrow (Sunday.)
Clay
Clayws..Please take photos of the the proof marks if you can and post at some point. (I am curious as if there are any Engilish proof marks on this piece. Also curious if the piece has Krupp or Whitworth barrels) Serial number reported to me is 123,2XX...and not being familier with Greener S/N's I presume this to be a Sauer S/N. Action has intergral ejectors...not in the forend but in the action itself...makes this a Sauer that is made from Greeners "self-acting Hammerless Ejector Gun" (Facile Princeps action? Ref Greener The Gun and its Devlopment pg 197) thanks in advance for your help. Jeff
Thre is sign W.W.Greener I believe
The ejector mechanism in the lumps and action is another Greener clue. That would make it either a "Self-Acting" ejector or a "Unique" ejector. Judging by the reinforcing bolsters at the angle of the frame, it is probably the later, improved, "Unique" model. The Facile Princeps had ejector work in the forend. The Unique and Self-Acting models are referred to as G-guns and are complex guns that were made only by the most skilled craftsmen.
Hammergun:
Thanks for the insight into the "Unique" as I had "assumed" that Greener had loosely based his "G-guns" on the Facile Princeps. I expect to see no British proofs and a "Special Gewehr Lauf Stahl" stamp on the tubes and Suhl was without a doubt the location to find the world's most skilled craftsmen. The only difference in the offering by Barnett and the "Krupp" Sauer is that the word "Safe" is on Barnett's while "Sicher" is on the "Krupp" Sauer. The addressing of the bolsters is a little different but the frame side reinforcing, contour of the underside of the frame and forend latch iron being the same with the exception of the triggerguard bow iron being rounded at the interface with the frame while the Barnett offering has a rounded version. Both the "Krupp" Sauer and the Heinrich Scherping I've handled had a 2 piece forward underlug and I expect the Barnett offering to have the same.
Thanks Clay for the effort whether it is still there or not.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
This supplied pic is from an earlier auction and appears to be a Sauer totally inhouse made longarm. Of what components I can't say yet. Looks to be chopperlump????
I wonder what the "SSIA"?? is on the left flat? PRUSSIA
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Many thanks to Clay in his Vegas pic excellent effort:
Hmm, "WB" filed up the frame. I wonder if that points to ole Willibald Barthelmes of Zella Saint Blasii??
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
If Willibald Barthelmes was the master craftsman that filed up the frame, he would have been an old cuss in 1905/1906/1907. If I am not mistaken, Carl Walther(1860 - 1915) served a stint at Willibald Barthelmes's shop beginning in 1873 and Carl Walther should have been a master in 1883/1884 and it may have been in the year 1886 when he hung out his own shingle. Ah, Willibald Barthelmes could have lived to a ripe old age and been the "go to" master craftsman when a very select few file strokes were needed. It seems odd that Sauer would source Zella Saint Blasii so I will check other possibilities. Willibald Barthelmes may have had a son named Willibald, Jr. There's a lowercase script "g" on the lower rib as well as what looks to be a "M" on the left tube near the lower rib. I still hold that Max Metzner is connected to the "M" or "MM" initials on the Sauer doubles and if, if Willibald Barthelmes filed up the frame that would solidify the connection as post WWI Max Metzner acquired ownership of Emil Barthelmes, which began in 1854 in Zella Saint Blasii. Just purely by the numbers, Emil Barthelmes may have been born in 1830. There's some odd winged fowl or a scratch on the right tube on the lower rib ahead of the flats. Interesting find all the way around.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
The stamp "Made in Prussia" proves that the action was made after 1921.
USA trade laws in 1921 dictated that any product made for export to the USA must have "Made in ______" on it.
As it was not possible to know where a certain gun would be sent when it was made, most complied by stamping as this one was.
Best,
John
I think the "Made In Purssia" stamp was applied later for import in the U.S. of A. I've done a quick search of my notes and Sauer #92,216 a Model 17 has the "W.B." in a oval as does Sauer #186,309, a Model 40E(the pic is a bit fuzzy though). So it appears "W.B.", possibly Willibald Barthelmes, was the "go to" craftsman when high end frames were needed.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Then you fathom that the action was made long before the stamp was made?
Possible.
Best,
John
I really thought we would see Greener trademarks and British proofs. The mechanics in the lumps look like the Greener Unique Ejector.
I had full faith in the craftsmen of Suhl to have a deep talent pool. "WB" must have retired circa Sauer #186309 as "FB" appears on Sauer Meisterwerk #179703. This hints that the high end frames were sourced to the "B" family and Barthelmes is about the only "B" family with a F. & a W. There was a Fritz Barthelmes who was born in 1899 and was the designer of the P.38 Walther but I'd hedge my bets on Franz or Friedrich Theodor Barthelmes, with more weight toward Franz and I'd bet there were 2 generations of Franz. Of course there's other Zella Saint Blasii "B"s like Bauer, Walter Böhme but Bauer was mainly pistols and Böhme was a retail outlet.
If anyone has GGCA #33, Summer 2007, page 23 there's a Johann Jakob Reeb that may have been sourced from Sauer. I sure would like to see pics of the flats and watertable.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
First off Kudos to Clay to provide the requested photos. A couple of random thoughts. I do not see a proof date on the barrel flats, The "Made in Prussia" and the spelling of the word "Son" defines this piece as destined for United States/N.America export. (The single large Crown shown on the barrel flats is also somewhat characteristic of Sauer export guns bound for the U.S./North American Market) It would be interesting to See if Griffen and Howe has this Sauer S/N in their record books and what their record might show about the order. Another Sauer mystery likely never to be solved. Jeff
If anyone sees this W. Foerster at Safari Outfitter's table at the Southern SxS, I'd be interested if there are any maker's marks. A pic would be great but that is asking a lot.
Sauer stamped
Oscar/Otto Geyger with overhanging and intercepting scears.
Bernhard Merkel, or some other Suhl craftsman, made quite a few of these type examples
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse