Hi fellas,

I'd like to try doing a set of barrels myself. An old English shotgun has lovely deep black barrels. I'm trying to research the details of this process.

Basically I know that the barrels are polished first and then a rust liquid is applied and then the barrels are left or to speed things up are placed in a sweat box. Then lightly carded down and then boiled in plain old boiling water for 10 minutes to make the rust go brown...then back to step 1 and repeat until you get the black you desire.

Can anyone aloborate and also give me any views on what the rusting solution is. Can one use the same solution that one uses for browning barrels? I assume so. Also I've used logwood powder to darken browned barrels do I just use some of this in the boiling water...views/processes lovingly accepted!


Cheers
T

If you want rust browned barrels, then you don't boil them. The boiling turns the rust orange/brown to black.

I usually boil after the second rusting, boil, then card, then dip in the etchant for 5 seconds, repeat until the desired color of the barrels. That could be 5 rusting or 10 rustings.

I thought English guns were browned not blackened/blue, but if blackened, then 5 minutes would do in the boiling water.

I have used Radio Shack's circuit board etching solution. I mixed it 15% etchant to 85% distilled water to bring out the Damascus pattern. Not sure if that is available to you there.

The logwood dye is used to enhance the blackened barrels and from what I have read, the amount of solution to use is when you cannot see through the water.

Hi, yep.

These are not damascus but steel barrels. I want them black (or blued in the USA). They should be a deep black. Ferric chloride appears to be the stuff to use to rust the barrels...I just wondered about the boiling part for how long and whether it's a good idea to use logwood in the boiling process.

T

Get some Laurel Mountain http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/barrel_brown.htm

This makes a great deep blue/black when used properly. I have done a number of barrels and love it!

Hi JJ, trouble is I'm in the UK can't find it here...anyone know a vendor in the UK that can sell me this?

Otherwise is the browning solution I have similar I wonder...and what about Ferric Chloride?

T

Your first stop should be to get a copy of Angier's 'Firearm Blueing and Browning'. In there you will find a huge amount of information on solutions (100's), preparation, finishing et al.
Some of the information is a little out of date (published in 1936) but with a little care most of it is very useful.
Many of the modern techniques like use of log-wood and etching with ferric chloride are barely mentioned but we can thank our American friends for most of the development of these 'new' methods!
In your first post you had the basic process pretty much sussed with the exception that you boil BEFORE carding.
There is no limit to how long you can boil for but as Angier states, everything has done what it is gonna do in 5-10 minutes.
A sweat box is not really required unless you are going into production, room temperature, a damp towel laid below and a simple tent to stop any airborn grease getting on to barrels is all that is required.
Many will argue about the need to fully plug the tubes. Personally I don't but I do make sure that they are perfectly dried inside after boiling, that no salt solution gets inside and I do lightly polish the bores with 800 W&D when I have finished the whole process.
Which solutions? Take your pick, they nearly all work pretty well.
For the record I use B12a page 80 for browning Damascus and C10k page 83 for blacking but they are pretty much interchangeable.
Degreasing: I use whiting, never solvents.
I allow 24 hours per rusting pass and reckon on having an excellent deep black in 7-10 passes and a good brown in 15-30 passes (but that is another story!).
Have fun!

Toby. Many thanks. I've got some of Peter Dysons browning solution and another browning solution from a gunsmith mate..I wonder if those will do.

Are you saying that you boil the barrels without being plugged and then dry them after each boiling session?

I do have the Angiers book but a friend has it for reading! Doh! Will check the pages out you suggest my friend and many thanks for the reply.

T

T,
Ferric chloride is not what you want for a rusting agent.It's an etchant. I too don't bother with plugging the bores to boil. I simply make certain they are dried immediately after boiling, and run a little fine steel wool down the bores when the job is done.
Jim

As I said, pretty any 'blacking/browning' solution will do the trick. Apparently you can even use good ol' sodium chloride solution but I have never tried it.
Most of these solutions are real 'bucket chemistry' and providing you don't try and push the speed of reaction by heating or steaming, keep a close eye on the the first few passes to check for pitting (too violent a reaction) and are patient, a pretty good finish is easy to achieve.
First few passes can look very blotchy and as long as the barrels have been thoroughly degreased (and kept that way!) this will even out by about half way through and be invisible by the end.
Biggest problem is bleeding ribs. Even a tiny pin hole can ruin a length of the barrel blacking beside it and the only real solution is to get the ribs relaid. There are a few bodges (loctite run into the hole comes to mind) but I have never had great success with them.

I put a plug in each end of one barrel to hold it by but never both in the same barrel, this way the hot water gets to all areas inside and out.
And, yes, I dry the inside of the barrels immediately after each boiling session. Push through a couple of suitable sized bits of kitchen roll, quick blast with a heat gun down the tubes and away you go.

Have any of you gentleman tried putting shellac on a swab and coating the insides of the barrels?
I usually use the plugs on each end only so that the barrels have a place to rest in my rusting box.
I started using a rusting box because I became inmpatient with the time. I should try hanging them now, the temperature and humidity is high and if I hung them outside I should get a decent rusting sooner then in my basement. I have a humidity gage and in the rusting box with a small bowl of water on a heat plate, I could get 80%+ in there, getting a nice orange rust in a shorter time. (3-4 hrs.) Should be able to d the same outside.

Cheers Toby. I've built a "boiling trough" today in preparation for my first attempt at this. I think the suggestion of putting the barrels in our busy bathroom is excellent and I'll sweaten the mrs up to make sure I do this...hopefully the ribs are OK on these barrels! T

I've got my Angier book back and looking at c10k (brummy black) and I'm not good at deciphering the details...is it;

Copper Sulphate 51 grams
ferric chlorage solution 31 grams (how do u measure this for a solution?)
Nitric Acid 51 grams
Alcohol (90 is that 90 proof lol?) 59 grams
water 1/4 of a US pint (just normal tap water or distilled?)

Cheers
T

The major corrosive component in Laurel Mountain Forge solution is ferric chloride.

OB

Ballistix Your interpretation of Angier is way off. I spent considerable time and effort researching this down to doing mole counts and eventually researching Brit. Pharmacopias to figure out what error Angier made in his interpretation of Birmingham Black. Initial conversion as written in Angier is as follows. To make 100ml
2.8gms Cu So4
8.25gms Ferr Chloride when using 29%Sol/41deg Baume/1.388 sg
11.75 gms of 20% W/V sol Nitric acid
1.53 gms alcohol of 95% strength
Add distilled water to make up to 100ml total
Tip Nett weight of mixing vessel then add 100gms water to establish true 100ml volume. I found graduated beakers to be up to 20% off.
Any further information only available over copious Morlands!!!
Good Luck

Ah that doesnt surprise me...but I invigorated a response which is splendid. Thanks for the detail will have a play!
T

What is CU so4?

Hello Ballistix999,

When I went to school CUSO4 was Copper Sulphate. However that was a long, long time ago and knowing Governments they probably renamed it or something.

Harry

Copper Sulphate, As a chrystalized solution it will translate weight for weight.

CuSO4 is the chemical symbol for anhydrous copper sulphate, that is having no water of crystallisation present. It's a very pale green to greyish white powder.

The stuff you by over the counter is usually the bright blue pentahydrate; that is it has five molecules of water attached and is properly denoted as CuSO4.5H2O

Angier intended that the anhydrous form be used unless the word "cryst" is given as a suffix in the formulation.

The basic chemical natures of the two are the same, but using the pentahydrate will put fewer copper ions into the mix than using an equal weight of the anhydrous form. If all you can get is the blue stuff add 1/3 by weight extra, and you'll be close enough.


Angier stated that at the time of writing only 92 elements were known; things have certainly gone with a bang since then!

Eug

Eugene, you are correct that Angier gives priority to the anhydrous form in Chap III subsec 6under the discuss Anhydrous and hydrated salts.(p33) However on p45 under Copper salts he contradicts himself Stating Copper Salts are a very frequent component of brownes...........They are all hydrated salts, their relative compositions being: CuSO4, 5 aq . My source is reagent CuSO4,5H2O. I have found that any increase in Copper ions/mole count much above that stated in my earlier response results in a certain coppering during initial coatings.
I have used the above formulation with good results.

Fine will try it mine too is the h2o variant being blue cheers fellas

Having looked at this further and was about to mix...it turns out Nitric Acid here in the UK isn't that simple to get and I'm having second thoughts on mixing this lot together...

Anyone know of a good off the shelf product? If not can someone placate me on the mixing process.

T

Hi Toby. I've been trying the process on my Lancaster sidelock barrels and it's going pretty well...even with my current browning solution as the rust activator. Looking forward the proper stuff. I've got the dreaded bleeding ribs problem, just a tiny little bit near the breech end...I'm on top of it but it is a right royal pain in the arse! I'm at about my 5th cycle now and the barrels are a nice deep grey rather than I would say "black" so I just keep going until I'm happy? Then is there a fixing process you would recommend prior to oiling at the end?

Regards,
Tony

I assume your bleeding ribs problem is causing spotting or uneven rusting. I've found that often times, I can get the solution to "take" on problem spots by adding a few drops of 99% isopropyl alcohol to a bit of my rusting solution and lightly rubbing it in to the offending area with a small pad of very fine steel wool. The alcohol seems to help it cut through the contamination and the steel wool helps blend it into the darker surrounding areas. Rub very lightly and wipe the area with brown paper towels if it doesn't take right away. I do worry about having some of these corrosive rusting and etching solutions remaining trapped between barrels/ribs and wonder how best to deal with the problem short of relaying ribs. Even with that, are we sure we are getting over 100 combined inches of absolutely perfect solder joint?

Don't use any penetrating or rust busting oils at the end such as WD-40. They will remove some of the black rust you worked so hard to get.

OK thanks might try this. I'm keeping on top of it, just, but it is a pain.