Am I alone in being completely turned off by seeing a beautiful stock on a great old gun for sale, only to be deterrred from the possible purchase consideration by seeing that smoke and honey wood END with a brown,black,red or take your pick color pad? If it's leather, you just know that something was fishy with the gun's butt - either short LOP or mashed up/abused end, and the seller/vendor had to make good and dress it up somehow. The pad, though leather and even expertly installed in some cases, just doesn't cut it. And every other case and type of pad - rubber or "other" - is an immediate "pass" on the gun. It weighs that much in the aesthetics department, at least to me. And who in their right mind, or rather, body actually finds a NEED for a pad on a shotgun, particularly the old ones we love and pamper with low pressure 1 oz loads? Am I being irrational? Crazy? You tell me.

To each his own....

I hunt with and shoot clays with my Lefever's and Fox's, and find they are much more comfortable with a rubber (or leather) recoil pad. I have long arms and like a 15-1/4" LOP -- and few of the old-timers left Philadephia or Syracuse with LOP's above 14".

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and a nice black, red, or orange recoil pad seems very appropriate (to me)on the butt end of a lovely walnut stock.

Leather pads are nice, but cost $300+, so only a few of my shotguns receive that treatment.

JERRY

I agree with you about recoil pads, I think they distract the beauty of the gun. I do have some that have them, but that is the way I got them, and to take them off would leave the stock short.
Some people like Jerry need something to increase the LOP in order to shoot correctly, but I am comfortable with a length of 14"-14 1/2".
I think most of the guns that left the factory 80-125 years ago with the LOP at 14", was that the shooting clothes were much different then. It seems most of the men wore jackets and most were probably wool back then.
My opinion of recoil pads is, a Field gun with the right length of pull, no recoil pad. Someone that shoots a lot of trap, skeet or sproting clays, maybe. I used to shoot a lot of skeet with a Winchester 101 20 ga. and a Beretta BL-4 28 ga with no recoil pad and most times with just a light shirt and no problem. Back then never owned a 12 ga for skeet shooting, but I don't know how that would make a difference with one having a recoil pad.

I'm an upland hunter, no waterfowl. I rarely shoot anything bigger than 20ga, mostly .410 these days. I hate to see a 20ga with a pad, let alone a 28ga or .410 gun. Pads can be heavy. Some of them pushing 1/2 lb.

There are more reasons to have a pad on a gun than reduction of recoil. Actually, that is the least valid reason, to me, on a hunting gun. Recoil reduction is very important, however, in clay target games. Recoil is cumulative in it's effect on a person's nervous system. Most serious comp shooters recognize the importance of doing everything possible to reduce that effect, and find that real beauty, to them, lies not in what's on the end of the butt, but what's on the scoreboard beside their name.

Another reason for pads on shotguns is protection of the butt. Setting the gun's butt down on a hard surface, such as the floor of a blind, or some of these gun racks at ranges over time will ruin a nicely checkered butt. Some people don't pull their gun out of the slip until they're ready to shoot and immediately replace it after shooting (this at the range, not hunting), as if sunlight will somehow deteriorate it. No one else feels comfortable admiring their nice piece because they are obviously so protective of it.

Another reason is that the right compound in a pad will keep the butt in place on your shoulder for the quick second shot. This is very important to me, in the field and at the range.

I hate seeing a new made pad on a vintage gun that looks like it was just put on to "add something to it". A vintage gun should have a vintage pad. When it's done right I find it very attractive, and useful. But, vintage pads that are correct for the particular gun in mind are sometimes hard to come by. Because of this I, most often, use a leather lace-on 1/2" pad to get the length out to 15-15 1/4", like Jerry. This can be removed quickly, protects the butt, and does everything required of a butt pad except keep the butt in place during recoil. But, two outta three ain't bad for something that only costs $34.99.

JMO, Stan

I would say you're surely not alone in that opinion, but I don't join you there. I would also say that if that's your preference, I certainly respect it, and am not trying to change your opinion, only explain why mine is different.

As mentioned, it's tough to put a gun w/out a pad on a gun rack w/out worrying about dinging up the checkering, etc. Along with all the other reasons mentioned for a pad, there's one I haven't seen - getting the correct length! I think pretty much everyone would agree that a good-fitting gun is the most important step on the road to good shooting, and adding a correct length pad is an easy, and, IMHO, correct way to add some LOP. In my mind, it's certainly MUCH preferable to gluing on a chunk of wood on the end of the butt; every one of these that I've seen looks simply awful.

Good point about the length. I was attempting to get that across, too, but did not do so very well, in hindsight. Agree, also, about wood extensions. Unless they're stained artistically to match, they look awful to me.

I've never seen what's so attractive about the old original black hard rubber or bakelite buttplates anyway. Most anything looks better than those to me, unless they have bird dogs or some design besides horizontal lines. But, I can tolerate them on an all original gun if nothing else is available. I really like to see something that was available from the factory, on that particular model gun, in lieu of them, though.

Merry CHRISTmas, Stan

I certainly prefer the look of a wood butt, checkered to avoid slipping, BUT as stated above I need LOP (15 1/4 - 15 1/2) and so I frequently add pads to my guns. My Arrieta has a custom stock (15 3/8) and is a beautiful looking/handling gun. I just can't afford any more custom guns (couldn't really afford the Arrieta either..lol) so I generally get a period pad for my shotguns. I've been lucky as I've not had to cut the wood on any I've added pads too (some are not soo lucky) and I always keep the orgina butt plate so the guns can be made originall again without any problem. I also use a forstner bit to drill out the stocks some to adjust balance after adding a pad (this too can be set right without much trouble).

Like Chuck, I'm mostly a hunter, but I also hunt waterfowl. Like Krakow, I abhor recoil pads on anything (other than a duck gun). If my funds were unlimited, I would have no upland guns with pads, but economics dictate that I buy guns that are priced right for my purposes and so they often have a pad or need a pad. Often the LOP is too short, often the existing pad is worn, rotted, or just plain ugly. The only practical solution is to add or replace the pad. I am somewhat proud of the fact that I have NEVER squared up the butt of a classic gun to fit a pad; they are always fit to the curvature of the butt and the original butt plate is reserved for future use. I have never put a pad on a gun that was otherwise useable for me. I have even spent way too much money to replace butts that have pads, just to get a butt with a factory plate. I don't automatically pass on a gun with a butt pad, but I also admit that I will pay less for one with a pad than I will for the same gun with a plate. I only have two guns that are too long for me, both with checkered butts, and they are to be fitted with hard plates after they are shortened. That way the next guy can add a pad to get LOP back over 15". I prefer light guns, and pads add weight.

I take the following approach;

Take the pad off and admire the beauty of the gun and for what it is and it's history. If I like it and it is to buy, buy it.

Put back pad on or whatever I need to shoot it and make it right for me. Take it off again to show people the gun or whatever.

Guns change, it's part of their history. Cleary if something has been hacked off avoid but things do get handed down and often over here in the UK everything is too short for me because most of the shooting gentry of the 18th and 19th century were short arse Lords with hand me downs to kids. Period.

T

I prefer them with the original Buttplate, a well done Pad is a second place.

You're not being irrational or crazy. Nor are those of us who prefer pads on most everything. That's our personal choice(yours and ours). Some of us shoot thousands of shots at clay targets to every one shot, in the field. "Self-butts" do get banged up and slip around, in a range gun rack. Pads prevent that and do the obvious, reduce felt recoil. Recoil from a typically light 28 ga. bothers me(without a pad) and even a .410 stays in place better, in the rack and against the shoulder.
Obviously, a skeletonized steel butt plate, on a fine gun, is a beautiful thing to behold, whether practical or not. A simple checkered "self butt" looks like a cheap air rifle. JMO, as always. Bottom line is, there's no right or wrong, here.
Merry christmas to all, again.

On an upland bird gun I prefer the original checkered butt or original horn butt plate or or original skeleton butt. But a pad is not a deal killer for me. I like the brown leather covered pads the best as they detract less from the looks of the gun. The Hawkins, Silvers, Jostam, Winchester, and Ithaca Sunburst are the least detraction and a Pachmyar White Line is the most detraction for me.

The authentic Silvers pads in particular seem to be heavy - they have some steel in them for sure.

Best,

Mike

I have "ape-hanger arms" as a gunsmith once put it. No "off the shelf" gun, the only kind I can afford, fits me. So I add an inch or more with some kind of pad.

On older guns, I either replace the wrecked pad some earlier owner put on it, or, if the stock is original with an original buttplate, I use a pullover. Very ugly, but they work. They also add some protection if you are into heavy cover, boulders, etc. The downside of the "butt condom," as my friend calls them, is that if you don't remove them after most hunts, moisture builds up and wrecks the stock finish. And removing/replacing them each time can be a drag.

Even a .410 that has a too-short stock kicks; the bigger guages get worse. So for me a pad is essential. If I could afford bespoke guns, I'd probably have no pads.

My only gun that has a replacement stock made for me is a 12. In ordinary hunting use, it doesn't kick me at all if I mount it correctly. The one time I used it for crows, it started to hurt after about 40 rounds, probably because I DIDN'T mount it right one or more times. Doves in Argentina would get painful! (Perhaps fortunately, I can't afford them either.....)

For some, life may well be too short to hunt with an ugly gun. On a limited budget, I'd MUCH rather HUNT with an ugly gun than sit home and look at a real beaut!

Merry Christmas to everybody! Very glad to have the Forum and your company!

Mike Armstrong

Amen, brother. Preach on!

All good points, pro and con. Certainly if your physical build needs that extra spacer for you to shoot it well, then you've got to do it. I do understand that. Ditto for those who shoot clays or skeet or any sport which requires multiple shots. As strange as it sounds, I never consider shotguns in those contexts: I don't involve myself in the shooting sports so it never enters my mind that the pads serve a legitimate purpose for those who do. I always look at a shotgun as a potential hunter because that's what I do with them.

I guess I wrote that post a little too soon after going through pictures of a bunch of beautiful old guns, with beautiful wood, most of which ended in a pad. I was a bit worked up, you might say. The ironic thing is I actually used to think a leather pad on a gun looked nice. Who knows? The day may come when a beautiful gun catches my heart and the pad seems to actually enhance its attraction.

Thanks for all the opinions and reasonings.

My Iver Johnson Supertrap came this way from the factory. Pad on a trap gun makes a lot of sense and the Jostam Antiflinch is one of my favorites:

One more reason for a expertly installed pad is physical (medical) problems. Over the years I've had both shoulders rebuilt and have run into some recoil issues. On my upland guns really don't have any problem as they are the smaller gauges so no pads. But for a lot of my waterfowl shooting with the 12 ga. I need a pad, also on shotguns where I'm going to shoot 100 or more shells in a day. So that's the way I do it to continue my shotgun shooting.

You've got no argument from me,popplecop! To keep you in the field, and with as much you shoot, I'd say the pads are a Godsend! Keep on goin'!

The day will come when all I want to shoot is a gas auto with a pad. When that day arrives, I'll be happy that I am still out hunting.

A necessary evil, sometimes. I have a 12 with a checkered butt, beautiful, but, it isn't a 100 round a day gun.
I used to feel the same way about pads that you do, Kid. I'm more tolerant of them now, particularly on 12s. My brother had a motorcycle accident that ended his participation on my trap league team. He uses his Savage 12, sans pad, to shoot his deer each fall, but, that is 1 or 2 rounds most years.
I have one gun that I wish had never been cut and a pad installed, a Beretta Silver Snipe 12 that my Dad bought new. But, my Dad was built about like Popeye the sailor, and it was too long for him when it was new. When the pad was new, and soft, it interfered with the single trigger mechanism-now that it is old, and hard, the trigger works fine. Go figure. If it is brutally cold, and I'm dressed in a heavy coat, I can make use of my Dad's old gun.
What we prefer, and what we can make best use of, are, oftentimes, not the same thing. A good example I can think of is when you hand most guys a sub 5 lb gun. Few people can shoot really light guns well, but, everyone sure loves to carry them.
I just had one of the Pachmayer sporting clays pads installed on a Spanish 12. Boy, it's a nice pad, it has a hard rubber wedge at the top that keeps it from hanging up on your coat. It looks right in place on a Spanish boxlock, but, I shudder at the thought of it being installed on a Boss.
Form follows function only so far, in that case.
My Dad used to say "Smoke 'em if you got 'em". Lets change that to "Shoot em' if you got 'em". A pad makes most of those big guns more pleasant to shoot. If not more pleasant to look at.

Best,
Ted

Thank you, Ted, for that eloquent encapsulation: Shoot 'em if you got 'em. Indeed. After all, that's what they're MEANT to do!

It's like someone said- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I bought a new Citori two years ago. I didn't have it a week and I put a brown leather covered (kickeez) pad on it. It looked awesome and I got so many compliments on it. The stock was flat from the factory on the end, so I didn't have to change it. I made the new pad fit to the stock, put the factory pad in a plastic bag to save, and if someone ever wants it back on, you'll never know it was ever changed. You have to remember that the average height of a person today is several inches taller than it was when a lot of these 75-100 year old guns were made. So people have grown in size over the years. So, sometimes the LOP needs to be lengthened. I think the most elegant stock is one that is checkered. But, if it slips from your hand when you set it down an it can be damaged. And a stock with a chip or dings in the end look worse to me than one with a pad. A leather pad to me signifies tradition and you don't see it too much any more. But, to each his own.

Good points, Jimmy. But wait a minute; I was AWOL from this board for a couple years. From what I remember, weren't you the Model 21 guru? Reading that you bought a Browning Citori seemed like blasphemy! What gives - is it just a faulty memory from my aged brain or were you the guy with a roomful of Winchester 21's?

Fashions in pads wax and wane. Was it Jack O'Connor who said that a pad on a buttstock was as much out of place as galoshes with a tuxedo? From a purely functional point of view, I always prefer a hard butt on a hunting gun as it slides quickest in place on my shoulder. A rubber pad hangs up on my clothing and occasionally causes a miss. I have never seen a contemporary target gun without a buttpad. On targer guns that must be shouldered quickly, I value the pads with the hard inserts at the heel which permits the pad to slide in place on the shoulder. We are becoming "wussies", to paraphrase Ed Rendell with our recoil sensitivity. 38 years ago I would shoot 250 rounds at trap in the evening after work using a factory hard butt Model 12, go home and load up the empties and do it all over again the next evening.

Yes, I still have several Model 21s, but I started shooting skeet a couple of years ago. (And since I have been putting a lot of leather covered pads on guns, I thought the Citori could use one.) So, I needed to have an everyday gun to knock around with. I would sure like to have a Browning XS Skeet model. They sure feel nice and fit me pretty well. I have used a 21 when I shoot sporting clays. I shoot it pretty well, but I don't shoot sporting clays as much as skeet.