I have a side by side .22/9mm shotshell garden gun. The shotshell is center fire not rimfire (darn) and I am hoping to find a source for these. If not any suggestions regarding making up some shells or rechambering would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mike
What an interesting combination. You say the shotshell is a 9mm c/f but could it possibly be chambered for a .38 or .357. You can load these with small shot and it makes an excellent 'rating' gun.
Is the .22 smooth or rifled?
I have one in .410/.22. Saving for my first grandchild.
The .22 is rifled.
I did a chamber cast of both. The shotshell case dia. is .399 and the lenght is approx. 1.5 " . The bore dia. is .336.
I was told that it was chambered for a .38 shot but that case is a little too small in dia.. It chambers and seats ok, just a little loose. It should fire. I am thinking of gettin some CCI shotshells loads and trying them but I want to be careful with the pressure. I have no idea of what a 9mm shotshell generates so until I get an idea I will hold off.
I do hope to find some 9mmm or someone who can suggest or help make some up. Probaly just wishful thinking on but my part but worth the try.
All in alll it is a pretty neat old firearm and is in good shape.
Mike
Fiocchi makes 9mm shot cartridges. You may wish to check with them about obtaining some.
Eley used to load the centerfire .360 shotshell, decades ago. Apparently they were popular in the UK. Maybe someone from that side of the pond will know of a source for new cartridges. Cheers!
The Fiocchi ammo is rimfire.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?pr...isting-_-850280The CCI ammo is listed as 9mm Luger
http://www.gunforall.com/shopcart/mcartfree/product.asp?intProdID=164451I do remember that RWS used to carry a 9mm shotshell, not sure if they still do.
Pete
Would a 38 S&W case be a tighter fit than 39 Special? It's a little bigger diameter, if you want to load up some shotshells.
9mm rimfire Garden Gun wont't work at all, as you have found out.
A friend has a small ss shotgun with 10.4mm stamped on the chamber, a cast revealed that it is chambered for the .410 2"
Mike
The 9 m/m smooth bore garden gun was available in the U.K. A Parker Hale catalogue circa 1930,refers to the gun as the,"Three Bore [9 m/m] Garden gun.It was sold as a low cost single shot bolt action gun. I believe the cartridges were imported into the U.K from Europe illustrations appear to be C.F.
Webley and Scott also sold a;3 Bore Bolt action garden gun, but this gun used R.F shells.
Hello
The 9.1x40mm was an early European Shotshell intended for small game hunting.
There was also a 9mm Centerfire shotshell. Primarily made in Spain
Case dimensions are:
Rim 0.436
Base 0.391
Mouth 0.370
Length 1.750
Closest case that I could think of was the 357 Maximum with a Speer shot cartridge.
Mike
Hi there,
I have a old Spanish hammer gun in 9mm.
As told Fiocchi has them, or use to have them, as well some other Italian makers.
I recently got a couple of boxes from Rio, maybe you can get them in the US.
You can look at cartridge dimensions here:
http://stevespages.com/page8d.htmThe 38 Special looks promising as does the 38 Long Colt. The real issue may become the base.
The other alternative is to have a chamber insert made up.
http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm Ace made an insert for my drilling 9.3x82r so I could fire 22 hornet in it. SAAMI spec for the 22 hornet is 25,000 CUP. You have to call him on a Sunday morning to speak directly with him.
Pete
Don't know if they're available in Portugal, but Speer makes capsules for loading 38 Special shot shells.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=313962
Have you checked MagTech. I seem to recall that at one time at least they listed the 9.1x40, but coul be wrong, might have been something else. I do remember they had brass for some small shotshell. Worth a look at this would appear to be ideal.
MagTech 9.1 berdan primed brass was available from Graf's. Since they changed to LP primed cases they have not listed the 9.1. They are however listed on the MagTech site as for LP
Cheers,
Laurie
Mike, Thanks. This info is helpful.
Mike
Laurie, Thanks!
I will order some brass today! It sounds like the best way to go.
I may also try to make up some shells using the .357 max case.
Mike
No-one makes .360 centrefire shotgun cartridges any more to my knowledge. They are very much collectors items. There was the .360 No.5 Rook Rifle and .380 Rook Rifle rounds that were made in shot versions; I have some in my collection but they will be about 100 years old.
What make is the gun? And what do the proof marks say? This could be a rare and valuable item. If it is .360 shotgun, I would suspect that it is likely to have been black powder proofed only. All the bolt action ones like the Webley were for the 9mm. rimfire also called the No.3 bore Garden Gun. Fiocchi and Hirtenberger are about the only people who make them any more. Any newish Eley 9mm. stuff is likely to be by Fiocchi.
I suspect it should be easy to make ammo for it by sizing down some sort of pistol case. Photos of proof marks may help to solve the mystery. Lagopus.....
Mike
In the good old days before the all wise British Government banned pistols (now only the criminals have pistols) I had a 357 Ruger blackhawk with 8 barrels. I actually had authorisation to use it for shooting pests with shot. I understand shotshells were available in the States but over here I could never get them. I used 357 cases rather than 38sp as you could get a little more shot in. Even then it was probably only ½ that of a 9mm garden gun so it was a very light load. It was Ok on the rats to 10yrds. I used No9 shot as that was the smallest I could get the little .22 dust shot is around No12 I understand. I used beer mats to cut the driving wad from again to save space and a thin card to hold the shot in. I sealed it with either silicone or sealing wax. I understand that in the states you can get domed plastic caps to increase the capacity a little.
I cut down on the powder from a bullet load as that takes up a great deal of the case capacity I cant remember now how much I put in but it was probably half.
I am sure with the thin wad and reduced powder you will have very low pressure and the 357 is going to be shorter than 1 ½ so it will be a light load for the gun.
I just looked at an old 38 case and it looks like it is .376 so that is just a little slack but you do need to be able to drop it in easily. I would guess if you use brass it will fire form to the chamber the worst that can happen is the case splits and you loose pressure. The internal measurement was around .336 so ideal match for the bore.
If the rim is a reasonable fit then I would go for experiment a little and have fun but dont hold us responsible for the advice!!
John
I would try the 357 Maximum case and the speer shot capsules, should be about right with the capsule not seated very far into the case, seat to correct overall length of about 1.75"
Mike
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=313962http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/components/empty_shot_capsules.aspx
Again, thanks to all for the help.
I have been trying to decipher the proof marks on the gun. The is no makers name.
I have never taken photos and posted them so I'll try to describe the marks. I will try to figure how to post photos later.
The receiver has a B with crown over it and a U with crown over it. I believe
this to be German proof used on an import gun?
All my attempts at describing are not 100% accurate. Old eyes and faint marks leave something to be desired.
The side of the rifle barrel has-
0.5 GRN GPm/7?
18 gr Bl.
The bottom of the rifle barrel has a
B G
U
All with crown over them.
It also has
53 ?/M
It also has what could be a makers mark but I can't really describe it. I'll have to try to make a photo.
The shot barrel has on the side-
0.2 gr N. G. P. m/71
18gr Bl.
The bottom of the shot barrel has
BG
U
all with crowns over.
8.8 T/r (maybe on the r)
9.18
811
Again any info and help is appreciated.
thank you all.
mike
Here is an update. I tried some CCI .38 shotshells. As expected the aluminum case split at the mouth but there was no sign of any other problems. I ordered some .357 max. brass and expect that they will fire form ok.
In the rifle barrel I shot some .22 short, LR sub sonic and LR high speed all worked well. In fact I was surprised by the accuracy (for me) that I could get. It is very consistent.
I have not been able to find a source for the Magtech 9.1mm brass, which I think would be a close fit. Magtech sells only through dealers and all of my local dealers say that their distributors don't have any and a order would have a minimum of 500. If any of you know of anyone I could try please let me know.
I am going to post on the German and Austrian board to see if any one can help ID this gun.
Again, thanks to all. I look forward to any new info.
Mike;
I don't understand that 18 gr Bl on both the shot & rifle bbls. That means 18 grams lead. Now this would equal about 5/8 oz of shot which may be right for the shot bbl "BUT" a 277 grain bullet from a .22RF, I don't think so. Are you sure the rifle is not 1,8 gr Bl. This would be about a 28 grain bullet. Shorts & longs in the US are loaded with 29-30 grain bullets which is very close.
Miller,
It is indeed 1. 8 not 18.
I also noticed a typo on my part for the shot barrel. It is 6 gr and not 18. Sorry to be so careless.
Thank you for your help.
Mike
Known as 9x40R Canne shot - 9mm WS - 9mm Walking Stick cartrige made by Kynoch.
Thinking along the same lines Geno. I was wondering about the Walking Stick Gun cartridge. They were usually found in 7mm., 9mm. and 12mm. The 12mm. W.S round eventually became the more familiar .410 shotgun round and in fact some of the older ones in my collection are marked 12mm/.410. French rounds are usually marked 12mm Canne. They are real collector's items now. Lagopus.....
Should be just the ticket for shooting mice, inside the tent. Good luck with your search.
I had the rocky Mountain Cartridge Company make me some brass cases for my 14 bore. They can make all sorts to order - might be worth contacting them.
John
Ah yes; 6Gr, that's about 2/10 oz of shot, sounds much more appropriate for a bore of this size.
Some of these little guns were made for collectors of specimens for taxidermy and cartridges were loaded with dust shot upwards and for shooting anything from large tropical butterflies to small birds. The original .410 cartridge was only 2" long and for a charge of 3/8th. ounce and not made as a sporting gun as such, similarly the .32 bore. Lagopus.....
Ron Gabriel in his American & British 410 Shotguns has a picture of some Eley 410 that only 7/8". I have no idea what they were intended for, except perhaps a pistol.
Pete
For the most part, caliber designations in the U.K. were/are carried out 3 places. Pistol cartridges of .41 caliber would be referred to as '.410'. Maybe what you saw was a shot load for a .41 caliber revolver.