I've never had the slightest interest in loading BP shotshells and was looking out the window each time it has been discussed here. I have three damascus barreled guns and as of last Sunday I find myself in possession of several boxes of filler wads and overshot cards from the "Alcan" era. I looked over my old Lyman shotshell manual from 1969 but all data is for smokeless. Some questions: 1) Is this stuff usable for building a BP load? 2) Should I try black or one of the subs? 3) Better to use Federal paper hulls than plastic because of the melt/burnthru factor? 4) Can I use a fold crimp? 5) Given the absence of a petaled shotcup, is leading a problem with a volume use like skeet and does anyone use a sleeve around the shot to mitigate leading?

Really all I'm looking for right now is a 12 gauge, 7/8 or 1 oz. skeet load and of course a lot of smoke. Thought maybe Jim Legg or "Bladesmith" could help me out here?

jack

Can't answer your question, but I have one of those metal shelving units which is almost completely filled with boxes of those Alcan (and Winchester) wads. I picked them up at an auction some years ago and have not yet figured out what to do with them.

Hi Jack,
I usually load 60-65 grains of GOEX 3f with 7/8 oz. shot and
68-70 with 1 oz. Any primer(I use Winchesters) and on top of the OP wad, whatever amount of filler is necessary for a full shell. If you need exact thicknesses of wads, I can give you that later this evening. I like Federal Papers and usually only use them once. Got a fairly nice G grade Lefever with a very low comb. I'm going to try my hand at bending it.

I use dram equalivent on modern loads as a tip on what I should load when using black power. You want to fill the hull to the top and if you are loading for an old girl look for chamber length. If anyone needs them I have a bunch of 11 bore wads by WW for 12 brass.
bill

Rabbit,

I load 12ga. 2 3/4 dram loads (75gr. of 2f Goex) and 1 oz. of 7.5 shot. It is a very effective load.

Your wads are very useable. I mainly use blackpowder 2f Goex but I have a friend who loads Pyrodex. I find in 12 ga hulls usually don't burn through but I usually shoot the hull once and toss it. However, your right paper would work better. I pick up plastic field hulls (high brass hulls) at my local trap range,I can always count on bring some home. Look for deer hunters sighting in their slug loads in to, great hulls too. I have 100 loaded and and easy 100 hulls ready to load.
I keep Rem, Win and Fed hulls in separate bags ready for loading. I used to use Win. Super speed but they don't roll crimp very well. Word of Warning-My 10 ga. however eats plastic hulls but I have the Republic Metallic Cartridge load 5 drams (135 gr. approx)and 1 1/8oz of #4 bismuth. that is alot of powder going off. I plan on duplicating the load with Rocky Mountain brass hulls.

As for fold crimp? You would have to play around with your load. I cut my hulls to 2.5" for my 75 grain load and then roll crimp them. I think it would be a pain to push the wads through the crimp. I prefer using 3 or 3.5" hulls and cut them down. This way I also get a perfectly round hull to load. The 2 3/4" inch hulls work but are kind of a pain as part of the crimp is left when I cut them down.

Leading will be a problem. I usually clean out the powder fouling with my garden hose and then use Hopppes or Rig 44.

Check out this website for blackpowder loading. Good info.

http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg

Sorry this is long, I hope it answers questions. I really enjoy shooting blackpowde loads. I plan on having my LC Smith out for doves this September. Blackpowder bismuth loads out to really suprise some people!

Thanks for the tips. That's roughly the conversion I was getting from one of the BP sites: 1 dram=27 grains. I've got half a 5 gal. bucket of the Federals which may last as long as my devotion to the process (and the smoke). Good luck with cranking up the stock. Guess it has to take most of it between the ends of the tangs and the thumbhole; old wood, doesn't sound easy. Like to see pictures of your bending rig, Jim.

jack

Beginners should buy loaded Gamebore ammo.

Ya think? jack

I'd start out with a few boxes of Gamebore BP, and see how you like 'em. They are not a powderpuff load, a big push - big white smoke - big stink too!
Think Taco Bell drive-thru, and cold beer after midnite, ole Rabbit.

One notes that Rabbit is a beginner to neither shooting or reloading, only specifically to BP shotshell reloading. He will remain so, as did all of us, until he actually starts. My first experience at BP "Reloading" was with a ramrod & a 12ga ML'er. When I decided I wanted some BP shotshells, I felt no need at all to "Buy Factory", as I too was already loading smokeless. My advise Jack, "Try It, You'll Like It".

Well, I felt the need to buy factory blackpowder shells.
Glad I did, I sold-off my last damascus barreled gun - a Jos. Lang. I have a few boxes leftover, so no reloading stuff, powder and shot lying around the house.
Just enough boxes for my next gun - if it be!

Just for interest, here's a pic I've tossed up before: BP loads in transluscent 67mm hulls by RC4. Easy to see the powder/wad/shot column.



This clay-target recipe is 75gr FFg, heavy grey card over-powder wad, 1/2-inch Wonder-lube soaked fibre wad, thin card wad, 1oz shot, thin card over-shot wad, roll-crimped. I substitute 85gr FFg and bismuth shot out on the swamps.

Rabbit once you shoot it and fill the woods with smoke your life will never be the same. Little pain to clean up afterwards. 10 minutes.

Lowell I hate you sold all your damascus guns...you could shoot those shells in your Beezley I'm sure it will hold the pressure.

If not you can still experience Blackpowder.
I hear they are coming out with some blackpowder .22 loads jUst' for plinkers....
FootnOte...They recommend using a cheap scope on your gun in case some of the suet was to seap inside.

You will find that BP is VERY addictive... <grin>

One other bit to keep in mind is that the barrels will get HOT HOT HOT after just a couple of shots. Be sure to take a glove with you.

I began loading cap and ball as a teen-ager over 40 years ago, and loaded BP for damascus guns beginning 30 years ago. You've gotten excellent advice. Incidentally the first gun I tried (a Syracuse Hollenbeck) blew me away with its good patterns, with 81 grs (3 dms) under 1 1/8 ozs hard shot, no shot protector.

Go enjoy!

Galazan carries Game Bore black powder ammo
http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID3603772DD244971-Kent-Ammunition.aspx
as does Stephen Farfaro in N.Y. 845-226-7758

Shells are also available from http://www.republicmetallic.com.

Ya think is right. You see, that ammo is expensive so you are not likely to wear those ole' guns out by shooting them too much. Now paying $9.50 for those 'Pure Gold' loads when Winchester/Remington/Kent of WV QUALITY loads are much less, that's stupid!

Blackpowder is pretty expensive to load.

I've been buying the once fired Federal paper hulls from Balistic Products. Seems alot of them look to be fired allot more than 'once'.
Anyone had trouble with loose primers in the Federal paper hulls ?

I'm shooting Goex FF in my twelve and my ten. I tried some Swiss which is supposed to be cleaner. I saw no real difference in it and Goex...except for the price.

What's you guys thoughts on misting the inside of the barrels with water between rounds ?
Some guys I shoot with do it some don't. I've tried it both ways and don't see a real difference in clean up.

Hey, have you ole' boys noticed an annoying trend. You know, when one disintegrates it was almost always last shot with home-brewed ammo?

I wrote this several years ago and update it now and then. Would welcome input. I have been using only Goex “cartridge grade” for the last few years and plan to stick with it as long as it’s available. I have heard lots of good things about “Swiss” but it’s not available locally. Corrections and additions welcome.
MP mjpetrov@acsalaska.net



Black Powder Ramblings:


Safety:
If your unsure about the safety of your gun have someone who is knowledgeable about Damascus and BP look it over for you. If it has Belgium proof marks it was proved with 339 grains powder and a 525 grain bullet (shot if it was choke bored). English 350 grains powder and 535 bullet. There is only so much room in a shotshell for black powder wads and shot. I do not know how to make a black-powder shotshell that has too much pressure.


Burning:
It is my belief that when black powder is ignited it starts burning from the back by the primer. The pressure climbs until the projectile starts moving, then the whole mess goes down the barrel with the back part of the powder burning. If you have enough barrel all the powder will be burned. When I first started shooting a muzzleloader I found that when you use too much powder it leaves the barrel unburned. Those of us who live where there is snow learn this lesson early. Any primer that fits the hull you are using will work fine, BP is very easy to ignite.

Brass Shot Shells:
Some shotguns were made for brass shells and the outside dimensions of the shells are the same as paper. The inside diameter is much large do to the thin brass. However the bores of the shotguns made for brass shells were not the same as ones made for paper, some of these are 11-10 gauge. Brass shells have been used for years in shotguns made for paper shells by using oversize wads. Wadding or wads should fit the barrel not the shell, hard to do when using brass in a gun made for paper. Now having said that, many people shoot brass with oversized wads and have no problems, might try them and see how your gun handles them.

10-14-2002
I talked with the people who bought the brass business from Ballard and they will make brass cases the same thickness as paper if asked. But be prepared to pay for turned brass at $4.20 (11-2003) each or $105 for a box of 25 with drawn brass at $14 per 25.
http://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/index.html



Smaller Grain Powder:
In most every modern book on the subject 2F is recommend for 12 gauge.
The phrase most often repeated is "3F is to fast and will blow the pattern".
In actual use I have found this to be false. If you convert many of the last century loading information to our F grading system you will find that they were using both 3 & 4F in shotguns. 1 & 2F will both work, I just happen to like 3F and the way it performs. I use a steel powder measure (Lyman No.5) and have found that setting it at one half the amount that is needed and throwing twice is much more consistent. Equal amount of powder measured by volume (dipper or measure) 2F will weigh more than 3F. 1 Dram = 27.4 grains

GOEX: Measure set at 3 Dram, average of ten
Cart………….92.31gr
ff………….…..86.85gr
fff………….….86.04gr
f…………….….81.18gr



Dissected Commercial Shotshell: (S)
Headstamp 12 RWS/Geco 12 Rottweil
Red plastic shell 2.490" OAL w/roll crimp.
Hard plastic overshot wad .050"
1 1/8 oz number 6 shot
Fiber wad with paper ends .450" long
85.2 grains of 4F (or smaller)black powder

From a BBS contributor:
I dissected a 2.75" Gamebore black powder load labeled as follows: 12 caliber, 7 shot, 28 gram load, 65mm length, felt wad. Back of the box states "... cartridges are suitable for use in : 70mm case length guns with a chamber length of 2&3/4" (70mm) or longer, nitro proofed to a service pressure of 3&1/4 tons per square inch (900kg per square cm)...".

My measurements were: 2.40" OAL, .150" roll crimp depth, 72.4 grains (approximately 1.25 teaspoon) of black powder (size unknown), 1 ounce of shot, .095" shot diameter, .60" over powder fiber wad (wad ends are paper coated), .125 over shot cork wad (plastic coating on ends), and a plastic base wad. The case is paper with a plastic coating on the outside. Headstamp is just the number 12 stamped four times with a star between each of the 12s.

Compression & Duplex:
Black powder performs best when compressed. In BP cartridge rifles, long drop tubes are used with/or a compression die is used. I have witnessed shot strings fired over the chronograph with black that varied no more than 5fps. For clean shooting in cartridge rifles we use a 10% smokeless duplex charge. I have tried this in shot shells with no luck. It may be the lower shotgun pressure is what’s keeping it from working. Seat the wad firmly on the powder.

Wads:
As a general rule I find that if the chamber is cut without lead or forcing cone that felt wads work best. If there is a forcing cone than the longer fiber wads are better. Always use a hard card on top of the powder. Wads soaked in grease may help in a muzzle-loader but serve no purpose in a shotshell. The older wads did have grease on them but only on the edge. If fouling is a problem I suggest a pea size bit of Crisco on top of the shot before you close the shell. When shooting a lot such as trap or skeet you will need to wear a leather glove on the left hand, the barrels get very hot. Last time out I took a water bottle with a "Snap" top a poured about a cup of water down each barrel after it got to hot to open.

Cases:
I like Federal paper but plastic will work just fine. Remember don’t use plastic shot cups against the powder. If you want to try them use a hard wad under the shot cup. I have a jig for my lathe and cut paper to 2.6" and use this length in several different guns. There seems to be as many lengths of chambers as makers of shotguns. The best way I know of to see what chamber you have is with a cerro-metal cast, put a wad and inch or so in front of the chamber and pour your cast up to the rim. After shooting inspect your cases for pin holes just at the top of the brass, discard the ones with holes. I lose about 10% each time to holes. Some burn through the first time, others take several reloads.

Loads:
A good place to start is equal parts shot and powder by VOLUME original loads were from 82-110 grains powder and up to 1¼ oz shot. My favorite is 70 grains 3F or 75 grains 2F or the new “cartridge” and 1-1 1/16 oz shot. I only shoot at the clay variety of birds so you may need more of both for game loads. 3-25-2000 Have shot around 150 rounds using 75 grains Goex "Cartridge" grade powder and it's working fine, does not seem to foul the bore as much as FFF or FF.

Crimp:
The crimp will depend on the load. If there is room, use the modern star crimp if not, roll crimp. Many of my loads are star crimped but they leave a small hole in the center so before I close I place a thin overshot wad then crimp. You have to be very careful of this hole in the crimp in a double barrel shotgun. If the recoil of the first barrel dislodges shot in the other barrel the shotstring can overrun the loose shot and make tinny bulges in the barrel. This works OK and the patterns are fine. At any given time there are 10-20 original roll crimpers for sale on e-bay, many can be bought for less than the new drill press POS they sell.

Cleaning:
After shooting I pour a cup or two of water down each barrel then take about ½ of a paper towel wad it up and push it out with a shotgun rod with a mop on the end. Be sure to wipe out the firing pin holes. When I get home I run a few patches with Hoppes No. 9 through the barrels until clean. Because you’re not using shot cups the bigger problem is lead in the bore. I soak with No. 9 and come back for several days and re-wipe. If the gun is going to be put away for a long time I run a patch with RIG on it and coat the bores. I started shooting BP shotshells 30+ years ago with a 20 gauge Remington rolling-block and have never pitted a bore. If you are using brass shotshells they need to be de-primed and scrubbed out with hot soapy water then dried, on the day they are used.




From Bret Adams 12-18-99:

Several years ago I wanted to see how much powder was useful in a 62cal. 30" flintlock round ball gun. With the chronograph at 30 ft. to eliminate patch/smoke interference, I loaded from 100gr. to 180gr. of GOEX FFG with a .610 patched round ball. Velocity increased up to 150gr., to about 1800fps. 160gr. produced about the same, with 170 &180gr. Charges progressively decreasing in velocity. This tells me that Black is progressive burning, and in this bbl., over 150gr. is only adding to the projectile weight. I think this coincides with your notes on the subject.

I shoot BP at game quite a lot here in the UK.
Here is my recipe and hints and tips.
85 grains of FFG, 1/8" card seated onto powder @ a minimum of 75lbs. Fibre or preferably Felt wad lubricated in Vegetable oil/Beeswax mix (allowed to drain off onto kitchen towel)1 & 1/8ozs of No 5 shot 1/16"overshot card RTO or crimp closure.
After the shooting wash out bores with Windshield wash fluid (neat)it really does move out the crud.


If you want to make your own wads you can use Builders Fibre board insulation, or the latest Fibre cartridges here are using compacted paper/ soft card, or if you want to be really good and serious punch out wads from Felt (hats etc.,)

MP;
I recall you having posted this before & is extremely good. I did question you before about the wt difference & know you said was by actual wt, but all else being equal one would expect a finer granulated powder to weigh more than a coarser one. Industry standard for a black powder measure is based on .115 CuIn per dram (27.34 grains). A CuIn of water weighs @ 253 grs, so the .115 CuIn would weigh 29.095 grs. This gives the dram of BP a density of 94%. A chart I copied off from somewhere many years ago, signed by Homer Powley, gave average bulk densities of a variety of smokeless powders as well as BP. It in fact listed 2FG Black as having a density of 94%, with 3Fg @ 98% & 4FG @ 100% so would seem the industry standard was based on 2FG. Black powder weights will of course vary a small amount from actual lot to lot. I cannot help but believe the lots you weighed varied in the man'f, perhaps a heavier wood for the charcoal etc, which caused the 2F to weigh more than the 3F rather than the granulation itself. Never-the-less this is still the best read I have ever seen upon black powder use IMO.

Pardon my ignorance but what is a Culn?

I will add my two cents here. I routinely shoot black powder skeet as well as low pressure smokeless in my 1890's hammer gun.

I load equal volumes of shot and 2F black powder. That is about 70 grains of powder for a 1 1/8 oz of shot or slightly less for 1 oz loads. I use 2F because I buy it in volume for my muzzle loader.

I use plastic or paper hulls, both either melt or burn though in 2 or 3 reloads. Since many of the shooters at the club dump their hull, finding empties is not a problem.

I use hard 1/8" hards card (nitro) and 1/2" cushion wads. I add card wads as needed to raise the shot level and crimp like a regular shell.

I have used some of the Black Powder subs but stay away from Triple 7 because it generally too expensive locally and operates at higher pressures.

I do not use a shot sleeve with Black Power, since the bore has to be scrubbed anyway a tornado brush does fine. Some of the newer shot sleeves will work at Black Powder temperatures other will melt.

Loading is not chitical, I use a dipper for powder and shot, I set the wads and crimp with an old Mec reloader.

For thin wall brass shells I use 11 ga components.

Black Power is a lot of fun and draws a lot of attention at the club. Kids really like the smoke and stink.

Good luck
RPr

I think Miller refers to "cu in" as in cubic inch. Think CID if you're a pre-litre type of guy.

Thanks for the info, folks. I tried some Feltan/Bluestreaks and Federal cushion wads from my windfall in a 12 gauge hull. They definitely are not interested in passing the crimp area of a fired hull. Have card wads in 1/16 and 1/8" thickness by now discover only in 16 and 20 gauge so I'll have to look at the suggested sites and Ballistic Products catolog and work out what I need.

jack

Rabbit is right, that was meant to be an abbreviation for Cubic Inch I capitalized the C & I but when it posted it has a different format than on my monitor & didn't look the same. The I looks more like an L, sorry about the confusion.

I load mine on a Grabber. A Universal Charge Bar will adjust out far tnough to hold a usable BP charge. I bought a 10 ga. wad guide to accept the fiber wads better and cut off the wasp-waist section of the wad seating tube, to seat the wads better. I use about 40-45 lbs. of wad pressure but wouldn't argue that that's a magic number. The smooth(inside) crimp starter MEC sells for paper shells works best for paper shells. That's probably why they make them. If you call MEC for any reason, I wouldn't tell them you are loading BP cartridges on the press. You'll get all the usual crap about igniting BP by static or friction from the sliding bar, etc. I think it's all nonsense but that's just MO. If you're more comfortable using a dipper and a stick, that's OK with me.

I’m retired now so I don’t have the time to redo the test but if anyone cares to undertake this and if you find that FFF weighs more than FF per same volume I’ll amend my notes.

Blackpowder at de club?
Do you know how bad these guys will smell while waiting in line at the snack machine.

Hard to find Goex as apparently they had a little fire. Found a distributor for Swiss. My brief foray into the subject has led me to conclude that the subs are a can of worms also. Not like I don't have some but only a small quantity taken from a powder horn formerly in the possession of a famous illustrator. Without implicating anyone, I will just say that it was given me in a manilla envelope with instructions to "dispose of it." I really thought it was (like the horn) just a "prop", maybe fine charcoal for filtering purposes. It weren't! I survived to be reminded of those high school age fireworks assemblers who would occasionally get a rise out of their work in one of those little shacks in Ohio when I was a kid. People have more fun than anybody!

jack

MP;
I don't currently have equivelent powders of different granulations to do a meaningful test. I think though a study of your chart will show it is not in order by Granule size. I don't recall now exactly where the Cartridge fits in but FG, 2FG & 3FG would be in line if granule size was the only difference, but they are not. This is true of any mat'l of this nature, powder shot etc. Given the base mat'l is the identical the smaller the granules, for a given volume the less air space will be present, so the smaller will weigh heavier. A dipper full of #9 shot will weigh slightly more than the same dipper full of #8 etc. Of course if you had a real high antimony #9 vs a pure lead #8 the situation could easily reverse. I have no doubt you accurately measured & weighed, just think there had to be a difference in the powder itself other than the granulation size.

Don't use plastic wads witk BP , they'll melt - Pyrodex and plastic is ok . From test I've done in my guns [ that may not apply to other guns ] - I was useing brass shells and hand tools to reload and found blown patterns when wad column height was increased more than a 1/2" . Also, anything thicker than the thin , .030, overshot wad was used caused blown patterns . BP volume is the same weight , but Pyrodex weight is much less , I think 70gr is equal to 50 , so you'll get more loads per pound because you load by volume but buy in weight . There's some savings there . http://WWW.circlefly.com sells paper wads and has loading advice on his web site . I don't agree with useing 11ga nito cards in the brass shells - from MLing I like a tigher fit so I use 10ga nitro cards . Also use the thin OS cards and glue.

For plastic shells I like the "Federal Gold " [ plastic base wad]- more volume for my load . Don't use any hull with paper base wads that you pick-up . If they're damp inside [ and hell to dry out ] you'll get bad reloads . I had to cut apart 16 boxes of shells once because of this - no fun . With the F.G.'s and a CB1138-12 wad you can use 1oz of shot and 80 to 90grs of Pyrodex . I use a Mec-650 and no powder bushing for 92grs , or 46A bushing for 80grs . The 1 3/8oz wad has a short cushion height that allows the big powder charge , and 1oz of shot will just fill the wad. If useing a progressive reloader make sure you hold the lever down and tap the powder bottle before you let the handle go back up - it takes a bit longer to fill the charge bar [ that's another story about 12 boxes of shells ] . With the above load I shot a 44/50 in S.C's with the Parker boys last year . I'll never do as Jim did , a 25 straight in skeet with a flintlock , but is it fun to shoot smoke and you may never go back . Good luck - Paul

What's you guys thoughts on misting the inside of the barrels with water between rounds?
Some guys I shoot with do it some don't. I've tried it both ways and don't see a real difference in clean up. [/quote


Everybody I shoot with carries a spray bottle of "moose milk" or plain water. I do, too. A healthy shot in each barrel when changing stations on trap or every 4 shots on skeet makes the barrels easier to clean afterwards. Shooting a round or two with smokeless afterwards will make the bores almost clean(low pressure, of course). I wouldn't argue that the spraying makes the gun shoot any better because the one time I won both the skeet and trap cartridge matches at the Western Nationals, I forgot to take my spray bottle out to the trap field. Rather than hold everyone up, I shot the entire match with no spray. Broke 25 straight! Trap straights are not that common for me.

Found GOEX 2FG locally 17$ a lb. Got a couple cans. Did not have over shot cards or over powder. I don't have a roll crimper anyway so will have to order. Clerk told me there was a good bp load for Win AA red wad (RL-12?) in AA compression-formed hulls but he did not have the data. Anyone familiar with this way of going about it?

jack

[quote=Michael Petrov
I’m retired now so I don’t have the time to redo the test but if anyone cares to undertake this and if you find that FFF weighs more than FF per same volume I’ll amend my notes.
[/quote]

I don't have data, but doubt very much that this could be the case. One would presume more airspace in any given volume of FFFG, though the difference would be small (as is indicated by the values given). One could use the metaphor of splitting wood: If you start with a pile of logs and keep splitting smaller and smaller the pile will get bigger and bigger. How's that for science?
Also someone commented that any primer will do as black is "easy to ignite". Of course this is true, but remember the serious rifle guys use the hottest primer they can find and get measurably superior results. That said, I doubt it would have any real application in shotguns but could be worth investigating.

My guess is the clerk doesn't know what he's talking about. As mentioned above, using plastic wads directly in front of BP is asking for a real mess. Point #2 is that I wouldn't waste AA cases on BP loads anyway. The fiber wads will fit straight-walled cases better, plastic wads are not allowed in BP cartridge matches and why waste an AA hull on a one or two shot load. Use junky shells like Federals, Challengers, Fiocchi, etc.

Cool. Thanks Jim.

jack

I note on the setting chart for the Multi-charge bar for shot, that each time the size is increased the bar has to be "Open" up larger for the same wt, except they actually weighed charges using commercial shot. As explained in the instructions there are spaces where a switch was made in shot alloy & some of these have a very slight reversal as change was made from magnum, Hard, shot to heavier chilled shot. The scenario of splitting wood is really not related at all to packing small granules into a given volume, thus not sceintific at all. The most space efficient of all is of course a solid. As the size is dropped & still placed in a given sized measure efficiency drops very fast. As size continues to go down a reversal occurs & efficiency starts going back up, but of course will never return to that of the solid. Ask any "OLD" farmer who ever carried a sack of corn to the grist mill to have ground, it will always go back in a smaller sack, even with an honest miller.

Ok, I printed out the advice, checked out the Illini Shotgunner's suggested site, ordered overshot and overpowder cards and the cheap plastic "Sabot Technologies" roll crimper from Precision Reloading. No shortage of strait-walled hulls at the range and if I'd thought about it a month sooner I could have got a lot of 3 and 3.5 inchers from the deer sighting-in out of the barrels at the rifle range. Not sure if the slug rounds are pie or roll but saw somewhere that long hulls cut down well below the old crimp area. Looks like I can get started for about 40$ outlay. Have to find my oven mitt, water bottle for this "moose milk" and whatall. I didn't order any books or data; maybe I'll see something locally. Thanks again!

jack

Rabbit,

I'm back after some technical difficuties! Thank you, David.
Like I said, I use a 2.5" hull because my 75 gr. bp, .125 card,.5 fiber wad, 1 oz. shot and .7 overshot load fit great in that length of hull. I will run into minor fitting when dealing with differant interior base wads. Remington offer the most challenge.

I have cut down 2 3/4" hulls to some success but prefer 3" or longer hulls.
Hulls I have tried are:

Win Universal and super speed. Super speeds are better because of the 6 point crimp, both don't roll crimp very well. They will work and you can find them by the bucket full at my public traprange.

Federal Game load are the same deal.

I love the Federal Premium loads, Win Supremes and Drylock and Experts. Remington can be a chanllenge though as they tend to customize each load they do. Old Rem mohawks are differant than nitro steel ect. I make it a point to look for hulls every time I'm out. I keep bags of Win,Rem and Fed separted and ready for loading.
Since I reprime on a Mec 650 I am considering a super sizer and possible even running my completed shells through the sizer die of my press.

Good Luck and have fun! I thing you will find this is addicting!

Jack,

A bit off the topic of good loads and methods, is considering the type of gun you'll use them in. Most every gun WILL work to fire them obviously, but clean-up of some action types (like a boxlock) can seem more daunting when the same BP gases that foul your barrel work their way into the frame and locks.....which they will.

The most easy mechanism to clean is that of the hammer guns, as any blow back passes out the striker holes, through the nipple hollows and beyond.....to where occasionally cleaning the striker works is sufficient.

For the hammerless sidelocks, an occasional removal of the locks and thin coating of the exposed metal surfaces of lock and frame with something like RIG grease (following cleaning) will do the trick handily.

Tougher are the boxlocks, that should be stripped downed and similarly coated on their interiors at some point to ward off that thin film of surface rust that will form when hygroscopic gases and particles are deposited and left to sit on unprotected metal.

Some of this blow-back can be mitigated if you don't mind an extra step while loading your black powder rounds.....and that is by lacquering in your primer with clear fingernail polish immediately before seating it. Makes for a nice, airtight seal that minimizes gas flowing past the battery cup. I load the Federal papers with the slightly larger dia. Fiocchi primers, lacquer them in, and have no problem with escaping gases.

I even enjoy the slight tedium of putting black powder loads together as it gives me time to reflect on how things used to be done back in those days. (I think you'll find that those shooters gravitating toward loading their own BP rounds are not the impatient types.) But by all means, give it a whirl as there is nothing quite like it.

Robt.

P.S. Be sure to check out: http://www.republicmetallic.com

as Terry Harper has a great 'must-read' section explaining cleaning and chemical reaction when using black powder.

Thanks Robert. Very interesting comments vis a vis unseen corrosion in the action via firing pin holes. Have only one hammergun (Remington) but had intended to shoot in damascus Lefever. I don't relish removing the sideplates and am going to give some serious attention to your recommendation of sealing primers. I've used fingernail polish recently to do some filling of minor dings in Superposed stock and have it right at hand. Precision Reloading held my order for a couple of weeks as the roll crimper was out of stock. Not in a colossal big hurry. Thanks again!

jack

I usually shoot black powder in my hammer gun. I will wipe the action and firing pins. Fortnately the locks are isolated from the firing pins. With my modern box lock guns I will disassemble and check them ocationally.

I really have not had much blow back into the firing pin holes, the breach face is usually just slooty and cleans up with warm soapy water on a damp rag.

The barrels are another story, I am from the old muzzleloading school, so it is hot soapy water and a bucket.

As regards an earlier comment, when I am shooting more than a round or two of skeet, I use a spray bottle of soapy water to keep the fouling soft. It looks funny with a spray bottle hanging from you back pocket but it works. 100 rounds of black powder can really coke up a barrel.

I think black powder is either an interesting experiment or a mind set. I am addicted to the the smoke and stink so the clean up hassle is just part of the game.

Good luck
RPr

I've found a dry brushing about every 25 rounds with a tornado brush cleans up just as easy for me.
I still go the hot water route for my muzzleloader but for my Black powder cartridge gun Balistol a good brass brush and the garden hose followed by patches and a good high pressure blow job is hard to beat.
Balistol must be working because it makes those brass brushes look like new.
L.F.

Joe, I'll start getting my janitorial supplies together. Got a 12 gauge tornado brush on a handled rod. No danger that the stainless is harder than those old taffy-pull barrels?

jack