I have a new B grade Fox, straight grip 32", made about 1912
The bbls weigh 4 lbs 2 oz and it has 2 7/8" chambers that appear to be original also has the oval Fox proof stamps on the flats, bores are .729 and the chokes are a tight .039" that start about 6" from the muzzle equal on both sides.

My question is.... are these #1 bbls and would this be a factory 3" gun?


CJ

Claudio, yes they are 1-weight barrels. 2-7/8 chambers may or may not be original. Check your PM's.

Frank Silvers

Hi CJ. I'm no expert but I do have a Fox A grade, 1913 gun, w/original 3" chambers that measure 2 7/8". Bores of my gun are .724, chokes are factory IM/F and are 4"+ in length. 32" barrels are stamped #1 and weigh 66 oz.

So....without a letter or copy of the factory build card to say otherwise I'd consider your B to be a legit 3" gun with #1 barrels. Do your barrels have the reinforced wedge like mine?

Claudio,
The only 3" Fox HE I've had in the shop measured shorter with three different chamber gauges. Info in a recent SSM story.
Steve

It was fairly common practice with several American firearms makers to bore their chambers just slightly short back during the paper hull era. There was a good 2-part article in the American Rifleman on the subject, back in the 30's. The theory--and testing seemed to support it--was that if the paper case mouth opened slightly into the forcing cone, it would give the shot charge some protection on first contact with the bores.

Steve.... HE Grade Foxes (Super Foxes) with FACTORY 3-inch chambers will measure "short" at about 2-11/16 to 2-3/4". A special, tight chamber reamer was used to center the shell = a perfect fit and a consistent transition of the shot charge into the forcing cone and bore.

Earlier GRADED 12 gauge Foxes (let's say < serial number 27800 which was the first documented Super Fox) were available on special order with factory chambers for early 3-inch shells. Very few do have long chambers done at the factory. Those that do will measure a full 2-7/8" with a regular chamber gauge. I have never seen one that has a chamber length stamp. A letter from John Callahan, or a card check done on member request by the A H Fox Collectors Association, is the only way to verify factory originality. I do own such a gun, an early CE made in 1912, that has heavy 1-weight tubes.

In sum, a Super Fox/HE Grade 12 gauge 3-inch chamber made for progressive burning powder loads like the then new Super-X shells, will measure about 2-11/16 to 2-3/4" with a regular chamber gauge. And an earlier 3-inch chamber intended for pre-progressive (bulk or dense powder) loads in 3" long hulls, will measure about 2-7/8".

I hope this is helpful. Silvers

I seem to recall Researcher mentioning the 3" shell coming along much later. Anyone recall when it was first offered?

Per Researcher:

In 1922, Western Cartridge Co. intoduced the 'Super-X' 12 gauge 3 inch shell with 1 3/8 ounces of shot, and the 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 ounce 3 3/4 dram equiv. load. Peters Cartridge Company's 'High Velocity' and Remington's Kleanbore 'Nitro Express Extra Long Range' loads soon followed. In 1935, Winchester/Western brought out the 1 5/8 ounce 12 gauge 3 inch magnum.

Ah Claudio, If you would like to send the Fox south of the border to me, I would be most happy to check it out for you! I would think that a B grade in that configuration and condition is quite rare.

Claudio, what are your plans for the Vintagers? Our little local group of collectors will have a booth this year. Bill Murphy

Ok Steven, I took proper chamber measurements using an inside micrometer and came up with these numbers

At the mouth of the chamber the measurement is .814" then it tapers down smoothly to the start of the forcing cone at which point the diameter is .801"...a taper of .013" over an exact 2.875" in length
Like I said they look pretty original.

Frank....I sent you a pm

Doug.... I'll send you this one and you send me the Lefever, so I can check it out...sounds fair to me

Bill we're kind of short on time this month.....might not happen
but I'll have a better idea next week.

Mike here's a shot of the bottom...no reinforcing wedge on this one

CJ

Looks like a special gun to me and worth getting a letter on or joining the AHFCA to get a copy of the factory card.
A straight grip 32" Fox will generate lots of PM's Great find how about a few more pictures. Interesting that the chamber end at .801 I thought .790 was the standard??? Craig

Three-inch shells have been around just about as long as cartridge shotguns have been around. Prior to repeaters, which needed a certain length shell to function reliably, there were a plethora of shell lengths. In my 1903 UMC catalogue there were 12-gauge paper shells 2 5/8, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, 3 and 3 1/4 inch. The 16-gauge was available 2 9/16, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. The 20-gauge was offered in 2 1/2, 2 3/4, 2 7/8, and 3 inch. In those days these longer shells didn't pack a heavier payload, but more and better wadding for a better gas seal which many serious Pigeon shooters thought to be an advantage. The first time I see the longer shells packing a heavier load was around 1912 for the 3-inch 20-gauge for the famous Widgeon Duck Club Parker Bros. guns and the J. Stevens A & T Co. pump gun. These 3-inch 20-gauge shells packed 2 1/2 drams equiv and 7/8 ounce of shot as opposed to the max load of 2 1/4 drams equiv. and 7/8 ounce of shot in the standard 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell! These shells were loaded with dense smokeless powder measured in grains (the heaviest load of ballistite offered in the 2 1/2 inch 20-gauge shell was 18 grains) while the longer shells could be had with 20 grains.





Several of the early Ansley H. Fox graded 20-gauge guns, circa 1912-13 were chambered for the 3-inch shell of that period.

By the late 1920s, Peters Cartridge Co. was offering their High Velocity progressive burning smokeless powder loads in long cases for about $10 per thousand more. From 1927 Peters catalogue --



This box is from the early 1930s in that it has Rustless priming, but pre 1934 as no DuPont markings --

Likewise in my 1891 U.S. Cartridge Co. price list. They patented their "Waterproof Paper Shot Shells" Oct 14, 1884 and offered their Climax Quality 12ga shells in 2 3/4 to 3 1/4 inches at $9 per 1,000. However, their 14ga and 16ga at that time were held to 2 9/16".