Gentlemen:
I am working with a early 1900's vintage SxS Box Lock and upon removal of the black composition butt stock plate I discovered a wood plug approximately 1/2" in diameter that is glued into a hole behind the plate. I don't believe this stock is attached to the receiver via a long through bolt, and if it were, it would most likely not be hidden behind a wood plug glued into its hole.

My thought initially was that a anti-recoil device had been installed during the gun lifetime, however, the plug/hole at > 1/2" diameter would most likely not accept such a tublar device. The double is a Featherweight. Anyone have an experience such as what I have described.

The parts list that I reviewed had no "through bolt" for stock attachment listed. Thanks for your input. B.M.

It may have had lead poured in for added weight for recoil / balance then the wood glued in to help keep the lead in place.

Have your freindly dentist X-ray the stock
Mike

There is no full length "thru bolt" on LC's.....

Drew Hause will be along in a bit and give you an attachment to the LC web site for stock removal..........follow those instructions............

Best,

I would say most likely lead was poured into the hole.

Here 'tis, but the stock removal is the easy part
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/15525639

But is it a sidelock L.C. Smith Featherweight (which was not introduced until 1909) or boxlock Hunter Arms Fulton?

Good Morning bsteele;

I had not thought of the old process of drilling a cavity and then filling it with lead as a method of recoil reduction, but I know that proceedure was widely practiced is times past.

I, or course, could carve out the wooden plug and verify your theory of a lead slug implant. However, the cavity just may have been filled with liquid mercury instead of solid lead.

Regards,
Dr.W.E.Brown

1. Drew, there was NO Featherweight Fulton or Hunter Special that I know of........he said Featherweight....has to be a side lock gun......

2. I've seen quite a few LC's with pre-cast lead weights installed in the stocks....then plugged and glued with wood plugs to keep the lead plug from rattling around......I don't think any were ever poured with hot lead into a hole in the stock........

Lead plugs were installed to balance the gun as per the customers request...the longer the barrels the heavier the lead plug to balance..............the dense wood (figured higher grade) stocks generally have no weight added as the figured tight grain Walnut is heavier......

3. The serial number will give you a production year on your gun......if you post it, we'll give you the exact year.......include all prefix's...like R, FW or FWS etc........

Best,

Hello PA24 :

I have researched the serial number on this particular SxS and have determined from the reference material that it was produced in 1914.

However, the interesting component of this particular gun consists of the fact that the frame is marked with the letter "R", following the serial number 347,XXX.

In spite of the "R", which indicates to me that the gun is on a "Regular" frame as opposed to being a "FW" "Featherweight" frame, the right hand side plate has five screw holes and not four. Additionally, on the underside of the frame, the cut-out for the barrel bolt has a radius end on the rectangle which measures 0.375" wide X 0.689" length.

Could it be that my SxS is a Featherweight model, but was incorrectly stamped with the letter "R" by mistake?

Regards,
Dr.W.E.Brown

Doug,

The letter "R" on this gun is not a prefix, but rather a suffix letter spaced after the serial number if that makes a difference in your consideration.

"I am working with a early 1900's vintage SxS Box Lock"

The meaning of a 'R' AFTER the serial number is uncertain but may indicate the A.P. Curtis Forend Fastener used 1912 to 1920



Regular frame automatic ejector ('RE' BEFORE the serial number) on left with Specialty grade 'S'. Featherweight frame 'Fw' and 'Field' grade on right. Featherweight guns 1909-1913 may not have the FW prefix stamp.



Look around here a bit Dr Brown http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/15234180 and http://www.lcsmith.org/index.html

Doug, The serial number (the first four digets) is; 347,6XX. Will this tell you the month and day in 1914 that it was produced ?

The best way to determine if you have a FW frame is to measure the width (span) across the nose- front of the receiver knuckle where the cocking rod axles protrude- R was a designation- the FW frames will have the extra tapped and recessed holes at the front bar of each sideplate, the R frame will not. But be advised- there were two "rare?" frame exceptions known- see Houchins book- the experimental 7 pin hole lock plates (possibly a H&H tyre sear interceptor design prototype) and also the C frame a R frame but with the extra front locating/mounting machine screws as on the FW series- Smiths are, indeed, a puzzlement- the radius break (nice job of giving out dims. too) was about the transition move from Syracuse to Fulton- early Syracuse Smiths had the four corners of the barrel lump (or lug) at true 90%- a right angle in steel against steel traps stress at that point, milling a radius relieves the stresses and sends them "a packin') around the radius- see the angle of the breech face to watertable- a 90% but the intersection is also radiused, and for this reason- some cheap US hardware store doubles were not so machined, they are junkyard dawgs today--

5 pins



5 holes in upper FW lockplate






LCSCA Research letters
http://www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/researchdivision.html

I certainly hope that you realize that the guys here are all pulling your leg about the "lead insert" in the stock and that all this sidelock vs boxlock business is just to keep you confused. What you undoubtedly have in your L.C. stock is a roll of gold double eagle coins placed there by an afluent former owner for emergency purposes and also to balance the gun a little better. Don't let'em fool you!...Geo

Wanna buy a gun, Doug?...Geo

Slow down guys, let Dr. Brown post one clear photo and there won't be any need for half guesses.

I have a lettered Gr. 2E from 1896 that weighs 8 lbs. 15 ozs. I wondered why it was so heavy and removed butt plate, there is a 3/4" hole, who knows how deep, that is filled with lead.
The letter specifies guns weight at 9 lbs and in another column, "Very Close Shooter". so this was done at the factory.

As for the "R" suffix, no one knows, anyone's guess.

The easiest way to tell a Regular frame from a Fetherweight frame is the number of screws on the left lock, one for Regular Frame and 2 for FW frame.

Frome the LC Smith Collector's page:

L.C. Smith serial numbers, as they are related to year of manufacture, are confusing. Serial number information before 1890 is not available. During the period of 1891 to 1916, many numbers are not sequential with blocks of overlapping numbers assigned to different types of shotguns, such as hammerless ejector guns. Starting in 1917, serial numbers of all types, gauges, and grades are intermixed. Adding to the confusion is that some pre-1913 ejector guns have an “E” at the end of the number, while others do not. Others have the suffix “R” (on both regular and featherweight frames). Many other inconsistencies occur. Serial numbers for the L.C. Smith Gun Company (1946-50) started with FWS1 and ended with FWS 56800. Serial numbers for the period of 1946 through 1950 include Hunter and Fulton shotguns. Serial numbers of guns produced by the Marlin Firearms Company (1968-71) had a prefix of FWM. The data in the following table were adapted from Brophy (1977). Unfortunately, serial numbers for hammerless non-ejector shotguns from about 23000 to 30000 have been lost. You will need to know if the shotgun is pre-1913 or later gun because some of the early serial numbers were repeated in later years. You can determine if it is a pre-1913 or later by comparing information given under Grades of Shotguns on this website. With a little time and perseverance, you should be able to determine the year of manufacture, but remember that all serial numbers are not in the records.

Good Evening Norm:

Sorry I have not gotten to post an image of my 1914 L.C. Smith SxS in 12 Gauge as yet. However, I would like to acknowledge all of the accurate information and images that have been presented by Dr. Hause, which I have found to be extremely heplful towards solving the question of why my Featherweight action reflects the letter "R" stamped just after and adjacent to the gun's serial number.

At this point there remains no question but that gun No. 347,6XX is in fact a Featherweight model by L.C.Smith. The conclusive feature being the slide lock plate with the five holes and the pointed top apex of the side plate.

As Dr.Hause mentioned earlier, it may well be that the letter "R" in this instance stamped onto a F.W. frame perhaps is to indicate the Curtis style forend latch which, in fact, this gun does have.

Best regards,

Dr. W.E. Brown

Dr. Brown:

Dr. Drew is a wonder. He's compiled photos and information that always comes in handy when trying to figure out Smith-related questions.

If you can, post pics of your Smith - some of us always like looking at them.

Best wishes.

I'm not sure LC Serial #s went as high as the 300,000 here. Is it possible the last number is a 0 or 00?

Yeah, there were serial numbers in the 300000s.

Norm:

I have taken a number of photos of the L.C. Smith 12 Ga. SxS which is the subject of this thread. In addition, I invited a knowledgable Elsie collector to view the gun and asked him to render his opinion as to its frame, which is marked with a letter "R".

Apparently, notwithstanding features which would be present on a Featherweight gun, this particuler gun is not a Featherweight, but rather a "transional" gun that has a regular frame. It seems that the person who inspected the gun today believes that some parts which are purely from a Regular frame were put together with parts from a Featherweight.

I attempted to post some of these images today, but could not determine the proper process to follow in order to down-load the file from my hard drive.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

If you'll send the images by jpg attachment to revdoc2@cox.net I'll post them for you.

Dr. Hause;

An E-mail message has been sent with four photos as attachments.

Thank you for assisting.

Dr. W.E. "Webb" Brown

TroutnPheasant@gmail.com

Dr. Brown, to be honest, there is no such thing as a "transitional" gun in reference to either a Regular frame and a FW frame gun. It is one or the other. The only thing that will fit are some of the screws.

Another way to tell is the bottom of the gun, the part of the barrel that goes into the receiver. On a FW frame it will be 11/16" long, a Regular frame will be 1 3/16" long, quite a difference.

Webb: please check your gmail.

Here we go, and clearly a Featherweight

Thanks brother Drew. It is from 1914.
If I'm not mistaken, I thought someone brought up the subject of a 5 pin lock. There was nothing special about it, just another 2 pins (screw posts) for the bridle. I also believe that this was in 1907 only. (but never say never).

Dr. Brown, in going over the previos posts, just now, you gave it away on the first page when you gave the dimensions of the barrel lug.
This is what happens when one does not pay attention. (me)

Nice gun.

Dr. Brown:

Thanks for sharing the photos. The R suffix question comes up about once a year on the L.C. Smith site - to date no one knows for sure what it signifies.

Are you in England? If so, does the gun sport British proof marks?

If you haven't as of yet, visit the L.C. Smith website for more information.

http://www.lcsmith.org

Best wishes on getting the gun back in the field.

One picture is worth a thousand words is NOT an old Chinese proverb, as many may well think. It was the catch-phrase of George Eastman of Rochester, NY-- just as "there's a sucker born every minute" is attributed to Phineas T. Barnum, and my favorite of all- to wit: "Never give a sucker an even break" from the late William Claude Dunkerfield- aaaaah yeeesss--my little chick-a-dee!!!!

The price one pays for toggling an ignored user

Actual translation: "A Picture's Meaning Can Express Ten Thousand Words" or the words of newspaper editor Arthur Brisbane to the Syracuse Advertising Men's Club, in March 1911: "Use a picture. It's worth a thousand words."