FYI ..... talk about rare !?!?
Opinions please .... talk among yourselves

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=48255x100&sale=331

Be Safe All, Jimmy B.

BEAUTIFUL and YES I am excited

Holy Crappola!! What a gun!! And how did it come down the last 100 years in such pristine condition?

I answered my own question and went to the website and see that it is a restored gun. Must be a Turnbull by the look of it. Sure would have liked to have seen it before the "restoration."

Compare this gun to the 12 gauge Optimus in this these photos (scroll way down to the DM Lefever crossbolts).

I have never seen an Optimus which was virtually an identical copy of an existing Optimus.


http://lefevercollectors.com/index.php?p=1_18_Photos

I had only heard of 1(ONE) D.M. Lefever Optimus' before this gun surfaced .....

It will be interesting to see what history is posted in the catalog about the gun, if any ???

Be Safe All, Jimmy B.

Somebody went to a lot of trouble if it is an "upgrade/fake." Sort of like the "Czar's" other Parker.

But was it really for the Czar?

The Lefever Arms Collectors Association knows of only one genuine DM Lefever crossbolt Optimus Gun.
This gun has surfaced before.
Julia's had better be very careful how they describe this. However, that hasn't stopped them in the past.

This gun was sold by Tom Gibbons from PA
several years ago
infamous serial #1977
enough said

Still a nice gun as an example of what can be done by todays craftsmen.

Which other example(s) are you referring to, Doc? Stopped them from doing what?

SRH

There was a high grade Lefever 16g 2 barrel set auctioned in Oct 2010 that was represented as original.
There was an extensive discussion on either this or the Lefever forum that I can't seem to find.
It had obviously been messed with. Gold had been poorly added.

Thanks, Bob. A good reminder to do due diligence in vetting these guns at auction.

SRH

All LeFever records were lost.... Any verification of an Optimus must be carefully scrutinized.

I agree wholeheartedly.
However, an auction house with the reputation and resources of Julia's should be expected to do some of that for you as compared to Joe's Pawn and Barber Shop in Podunk.

Ouch,,"never a screw turned"

Roger Ronnie might recognize it.

If the D M Lefever cross bolt guns were produced in close to serial number order, the Optimus grade was discontinued prior to #1977 being built.

#1966 is marked as made in Bowling Green, Ohio. The "Not Connected..." wording on the action bottom/trigger plate on #1977 is found on Syracuse made guns. With the plant being in Defiance,Ohio between the other two locations,that is another well out of sequence factor.

RDH45, I agree it is a good example of what can be done as a custom gun; too bad it is not so represented. I have one in process right now which will be "unveiled" at the Las Vegas show in January 2014.

"However, an auction house with the reputation and resources of Julia's should be expected to do some of that for you as compared to Joe's Pawn and Barber Shop in Podunk."

When reputable big auction houses or for that matter, any auction house takes in guns that are rare or very limited, it is up to them to research as best they can before they list it.
A prime example, a few years ago this same auction house had quite a few Parkers listed as, I believe, near mint condition. Gave a good description and naturally serial numbers in their online catalog. Doug Turnbull stepped forward and said that those guns listed he had refurbished.
Now if he had not stepped forward in the beginning and those guns were sold, and later found out that they were refurbished, they would make good and refund the money, but their reputation I think would be flawed.
It just goes to show you that even this big auction house's experts didn't know.

David,

It would be foolish to assume that every auction service employs subject matter experts for every make of gun and period of their manufacture.

Mark

Mark, he supposedly did hire one of the best appraisers out there.
Not all, but I believe the big auction houses like this one, it is their job to do so.

David,

I agree that they should verify and be responsible for what they advertise but as I stated, if would be foolish to assume they can be experts for every valuable gun. At best they can research what is written in books. We both know that books can list inaccurate information.

Mark

Since the engraver simply copied Daryl's Optimus, which said "not connected with"
on the floor plate. And that gun is a early gun in the 11xx range. Thus the disclaimer. The mistake was assigning a late serial number which by that time frame stopped
stating that. We should wait and read the final Catalog's description from Julia's

"It would be foolish to assume that every auction service employs subject matter experts for every make of gun and period of their manufacture."


Come now. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If an auction service cannot employ an expert, that's fine. But then they lose their right to claim the gun is the real deal. They don't get to say it's the cream of the crop then hide behind "we aren't experts" when it turns out the gun is a phony.

Greg,

I agree with you 100%! That is why I do not buy from the big auction services without an inspection by someone representing my interests.

Mark

Faked or upgraded or even real that is a superb looking gun which is one more that I will never own or even shoot. I wish our fore fathers bought ten times more Lefevers than they did so there would be more left for us to own.

Remarkable gun! Assuming it is an upgrade it is amazing what quality work is available out there in todays world. I think it is beautiful. What grade could it have begun life as?

Mark, My point on bringing up the 2010 auction was that the auction house was notified by several folks who can represent themselves as highly knowlegable about Lefevers that this gun had been cosmetically altered and upgraded.

They stated that they were only guarenteeing that the gun was real. That was not in dispute. I'm sure they employ lawyers to assure that the word of the law is adhered to. However, the ethics of misrepresenting the gun, while maybe legal because we have no records to absolutely prove anything, leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

I agree with Paul, lets see how this plays out. Its just that I feel bad when a fellow brings in a high grade gun to show us at one of the meets or shows with pride in his eyes and a much lighter wallet and we recognize it as a fake.

Dr. Bob,

I understand completely. I am not going to say anything bad about the big auction services except that potential buyers of high dollar guns should have experts on the particular gun of interest verify its originality and condition. The auctioneers could be wrong!

Mark

Looks like they had a hard time keeping the guns in inventory marked with their current name as this struggling company moved around and continually reorganized.

The company name was D.M. Lefever & Sons, Syracuse, NY until late 1902, when it became D.M. Lefever, Sons & Co., Syracuse, NY. By October 1904, their ads are D.M. Lefever, Sons & Co., Defiance, Ohio, which continues into June 1905. By July 1905, their ads are D.M. Lefever Arms Co., Defiance, Ohio, and by September 1905, the ads are D.M. Lefever Co. Bowling Green, Ohio. So, the name D.M. Lefever Arms Co. as found on the barrels of this gun was only used in their advertising in July and August 1905. The name D.M. Lefever, Sons & Co. on the sides of the receiver appears on their magazine advertising from December 1902 in Syracuse through June 1905 in Defiance.

Researcher,
You are correct. However, I have a catalog from Defiance that was obviously printed in Syracuse with Syracuse on the cover but overstamped with "Removed to Defiance, Ohio" over the Syracuse.

They were in deep financial trouble and could not afford a totally new catalog. That wopuld explain the differences between catlog cuts and known guns produced at the various locations.

We have not seen another gun with more than one Company name marked on that given gun.
Could barrels have been made after the frame was milled at the end of the run of the company? Possibly.

Would an out of sequence Syracuse marked Optimus frame have been mated with barrels marked with the Ohio company name? Over Uncle Dan's dead body. Since he died less than 1 year after the termination of the Defiance operation, I suppose that is a remote possibility. That would be the only explanation that I could place on a gun with several "mistakes" of Optimus quality leaving the Lefever factory while Dan was still alive.

Shortly after you visited us at the Lefever tables in Las Vegas last month we were visited by a well known stock maker who admitted that he restocked multiple upgraded guns for Tom Gibbons. Many of these guns, such as the one in question, have surfaced from time to time. If somebody wants them as an example of a modern upgrade of a classic gun, so be it. If somebody is offering these guns as original Lefever Optimus guns, shame on them.

Somewhere there is a Fox collector that was sold a 20 ga Fox HE, sn. 202125 by the man in Pa. When he bought the gun from me it had seen many duck hunts in the Illinois river bottoms above Peoria. Saw it in gun list several months later as virtually unfired at $17,500.

Whitworth "wheat" stamps do look suspect compared to known originals ...... IMHO !?!?

Be Safe All, Jimmy B.

I see the gun is properly described
as Upgraded, recreated now on Julia's
Site!!

Congratulations to Julia's this time.
I can only wonder what they would have done if we hadn't brought it to their attention.

I would quit wondering because we all know what they would have, or would not have done!

Gentlemen, As a final comment on the 16, "Beware the 20". SFQ

Anyone want to hazard a guess who did the upgrade? It certainly shows the skill is still with us.

Sfg correctly states that there is another exact duplicate of
this 16ga Optimus out there in 20 gauge.
I saw pictures and it passed hands at the Vegas show a
couple of years ago.

If in fact, this isn't an "Original Optimus", and that it has been upgrades/enhanced, what would be a fair price for this shotgun?

In my opinion it is still a very attractive gun, and I would enjoy hunting with it, even knowing its artifical origin and checkered past. A talented engraver spent many hours on this "upgrade." That alone might cost $5k or $10K.

Is there a general guideline: that it would now be worth 10% or 20% of a true original?

Julia's auction, 15,000.00 plus Buyers premium 15 to 17%. SFQ