Hello All,

Please bear with me.

In January 2013 a senior couple was attacked in the middle of the night by leftist terrorists at their farm in the south. The perpetrators set fire to their farmhouse and they both died in the fire.

During the police operative some minutes after the fact but late nevertheless, a known local agitator with a long rap sheet for terrorist activities was found wounded a mile away from the burnt house. He is the only perpetrator in custody. His wound came from a .22lr bullet consistent with the firearm that the deceased farm owner had, a Browning pistol. It has been established by the prosecution that the farm owner managed to shoot at the terrorists with this gun before being burnt.

The defense of the terrorist in custody is questioning that the bullet that wounded the perpetrator came from the Browning pistol based on the lack of nickel in the perpetrators thorax wound.

I would dearly appreciate expert opinions and hopefully scientific data concerning this. I will share this with the prosecution. The trial is about to begin.

(I have not used the word "alleged" because I honestly think it does not apply here).

Best regards,

JC

P.S.:comments concerning the inadequacy of the gun used for defense are not necessary.jc

JayCee:
This is a terrible situation. However; this thread will probably be moved to another area.
Why would leftist terrorists attack and kill an old couple who lived on a farm?
I am also going to state I don't understand your question. 22 bullets are usually either plain lead or coated with a copper jacket. Do you mean copper rather than nickel?
Jim

I don't see what the "lack of nickle", copper, brass or any other metal coating in a bullet wound would prove.

I would expect a farmer to have a mixture of .22 ammo possibly even loaded in his pistola.

Here we have what's called circumstantial evidence....

Hello Jim,

The defense "expert" based who knows on what says there should have been nickel residue from the bullet in the wound (?).

JC

If you've got the bullet, and you've got the gun, any good forensics lab should be able to tell if the bullet was fired from the gun.

Best,
Ted

Hi Ted,

I do not have enough information, but considering a .22 normally gets pretty beat
up, most probably there isn't enough ballistics information, i.e. marks from the barrel, left. Otherwise it would be slam-dunk.

JC

JC,
Any ballistic expert with a comparison microscope (or whatever these instruments are properly called) can match a fired bullet to a barrel.
With kind regards,
Jani

That expert if full of crap (FOC). Is he trying to say that the bullet was not fired from the Browning because it did not have any nickle on the bullet from the nickle steel barrel? Since lead is far softer than the nickle steel the lead gets deposited on the bore not the bullet wearing out the steel barrel. We call it lead fouling.

Most .22 bullets are plain lead or washed with copper or copper jacked in a very thin layer of copper. Perhaps some where they make .22 bullets with nickle plating but I have not seen any. Some cases have been plated with nickle but that is on the outside of the case, not the inside which comes into contact with the bullet. Again where is he claiming the nickle to be coming from? Out of the steel, off the case exterior or from a unheard of nickle plated bullet? The Lone Ranger used a silver bullet not a nickle bullet. FOC

Doesn't the prosecution get expert witnesses down there? I have been an expert witness, and it often comes down to which "expert(s)" comes across as the most credible. Hope they don't try to make a scapegoat of of the poor farmer in this instance.

Rifling marks from the pistol should match the bullet. Nickel won,t even enter the equation and I think the Defence is just clutching at straws and trying to cast an element of doubt. Whatever you think of him that's his job. However, the expert witness will be required to give his evidence under oath and prove his qualifications to be an 'expert' witness. Sadly, soft .22 bullets can often get badly deformed; especially if they hit bone and the fact that the pistol was probable subject to great heat in the fire it may be difficult to make a match. The Prosecution expert may however be able to say what make of pistol was used but not whether that was the actual one.

One thing to consider is the possibility of fibres from clothing that the bullet passed through being embedded in the wound. Show that they match what he was wearing at the time and the position matching the wound and that would be good circumstantial evidence to indicate the recent nature of the wound. I guess he is trying to make is defence in that it was an earlier wound and not connected with the incident.

Any idea of the defence storyline? Lagopus..... (Ex-Detective).

Hello Lagopus,

Thank you for your feedback.

I must confess all my knowledge for now comes from what has been reported in the papers.

There is a thread further down called "On plated shot..." , where nickel plated lead shot
is mentioned. Is this hardening technique used on .22 bullets? In any case from what
can be seen of the state of the victims house after the fire I hardly think there is anything
recoverable concerning boxes of ammo to compare.

JC

Sorry, missed going on yesterday. One thing with lead is that it is identifiable to a batch lot. I Presume Chummie is trying to say that he was shot but not by the murder victim. Lead shot or lead .22 bullets are made from scrap lead and as such will contain various impurities in varying proportions. Each batch will be as different as fingerprints. Yes, quite a quantity will be smelted at the same time and there will be several tons of identical shot or identical bullets but they will match to the individual batch. One load of Winchester lead .22 ammo in one batch will be nothing like another batch coming out of the factory a short time later. If the bullet in the suspect matches the remaining bullets (if any have survived the fire) then there will be a good chance that they will have come from the same batch. Circumstantial evidence again but the more the better. Interesting stuff lead and in fact a drop of engine oil from the sump left at the scene is identifiable to a suspects car as good as DNA and tyre rubber can batch match and also contain certain trace elements that match to a vehicle. All very scientific but avenues of exploration. Lagopus.....

Hello Lagopus and All,

I am extremely embarrassed about this, but today, the same newspaper that had reported the bullet as being a .22 is saying that it is 7,65 fired form a Browning pistol. The trial started yesterday and this was reported in todays newspaper.

I am trying to confirm this, but if it is so, there is a higher probability of the bullet being in a state that enables microscopic analysis to match it to the barrel of the gun.

Again thank you for your feedback.

JC

Sounds as if it will be a standard jacketed round then. If that is the case then the rifling marks will be clearer. Even if they can't be matched to the exact pistol because of fire damage it should still be possible for an expert to tell what make of pistol will have been used. Each manufacturer will have slightly different barrel rifling methods; width of lands and grooves and pitch of rifling. Just like it would be possible to tell whether a .243 bullet was fired out of a Remington and Winchester or a Savage. Interesting case. Lagopus.....

Hello Lagopus,

Thank you.

Just had a contact with a lawyer of the prosecution. He confirmed that the gun in fact is a 7.62 cal Browning pistol that suffered about 900ºC in the fire of the house and is in a deplorable state, unfortunately not apt for comparisons.

Your feedback is very pertinent in this case as the defence is trying to establish that another gun was used.

As soon as I have more information I shall share it. I am trying to know more about the "nickel in the wound theory".

JC

I assume that the "nickel in the wound" refers to the cupronickel alloy formerly commonly used for auto pistol bullet jackets. Is this alloy STILL used?

It seems to me that our references to bullet jackets are pretty sloppy as to alloy names--I've seen current jacketed auto pistol bullets described as both "copper jacketed" and "brass jacketed." Can't be both at the same time. And of course we still don't know when or where those crime scene bullets were manufactured....

I've seen .32 ACP/7.65 Browning ammo that had bullet jackets of steel, too, but SUSPECT it had at least some nickel content.

It seems that "burning up the evidence," a common tactic of criminal morons, may have at least muddied up this case for the defense a little. Not sure what "reasonable doubt" means in Chile, tho.

Interesting post, for sure.

Hello Mike,

Yesterday I finally heard some information directly from the defence attorney who
was being interview by the local CNN channel.
He said there were traces of copper in the wound and no nickel that should have
been there if the bullet came from the victims Browning pistol because the bullets
found in it had nickel jackets; he said "they were silver bullets" sic.
He also mentioned that the perpetrator was found by the police wounded and was
held for at least three hours before being taken to hospital.
How the traces of copper were found I do not know. I also do not know what
happened to the bullet, as it is not available to the prosecution.
We know from experience that we sometimes have assorted ammo and it may well
be that the victim had copper jacketed bullets also.
I find highly unlikely that metal detection in a wound, after several hours can be
done, but I am ignorant on the matter. Any and all comments are more than
welcome.

JC