I am looking at what appears to be a very nice pair of 12 bore Army Navy boxlocks and have a few questions for those with more knowledge than me. The right barrel on one of the guns has a wall thickness of .0019. Would it be safe to continue to use the gun with light field loads? If not, what would be the cost of new barrels and is there a gunsmith in the US who could perform the work? (I've spent several hours searching the web and it is surprisingly difficult to find this information). The guns are currently in the UK, so if it would be best to rebarrel the one gun there, I could have it done before importing them.

Many thanks.

Assuming the guns are offered for sale in the UK, they will need to be 'in proof'. If they are, then they should be safe for the loads for which they are proofed.
I assume the .019 is near the muzzle, in which case, the pressures are low and from that aspect, not a worry. BUT, walls that thin are easily dented. They may also indicate the gun has been fine bored - possibly to remove pitting. This may have taken the barrels right to the verge of proof limits.
You need to establish;
- that the guns are in proof
- at what size the proof was passed (.719, .729 etc)
- what the present bore dimensions are
- that any pitting present is minimal

For example, a gun proofed for a 12 (.729) and currently measuring say .737 is in proof, but only just. Any further fine boring will not only thin the barrels further, but also put the gun out of proof.

John, many thanks. The guns are being offered by an auction house so I assume they are in proof and bores not pitted, as they normally mention if the bores are marked. Here is a link to the listing. If you can glean anything else from the listing, I'd be grateful to know.

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21657/lot/140/

If you're talking about a set of new barrels rather than sleeving, the expense may be too great given the value of the guns. I owned a pair of A&N boxlocks. Decent guns, in proof, no thin spots, no pits, etc. In the original motor case. Made by Webley & Scott, so essentially a W&S pair with the A&N name. At which point you have to ask, how much are a pair of Scotts worth? Individually, a very nice W&S 700 12ga can be bought for $3,000 or maybe less. Throw in something extra for a pair vs two individual guns (although pairs in the States don't seem to command much of a premium, if any); a bit more if they're cased. A new set of barrels would almost certainly leave you upside down.

Champlin Arms recently had a pair of Wilkes boxlocks on their website. Totally redone, by Wilkes: New barrels, new stocks, gone through and refurbished. In the case. The price was somewhere around $12,000, if I recall correctly. If you add up current prices for new barrels and new stocks, that would exceed the asking price for the guns. However, once you have them, they're still British 12 bore boxlocks, on which the market is fairly soft at present. Again, you could buy a couple of Scott 700's and come up with a "composed pair" for a lot less. (That being said, the Wilkes pair is no longer on Champlin's website, so they must have sold.)

Definitely not worth re-barrelling ,sleeving will cost around £1400 ex works UK plus tax . A single A&D in proof but with bad barrels would not want to be more than £400 total in my opinion put the other at £1500 so that puts them below the estimate .
Your choice but don't forget all the commissions and shipping costs .

If they are from Bonhams, they will be 'in proof', though by how much, one can't say. If you want a gun to own and use very occasionally, 0.019 wall I could live with (I have at least one that thin) - but for a regular use gun - I'd be concerned about it getting dented so easily. There is no margin to have any work done on the barrels short of sleeving or replacement. Such a gun should be towards the bottom of any price range because frankly, its near the end of its natural life.

Sleeving is fairly expensive - and reduces the value, especially where one of a pair is sleeved because the paired balance will almost certainly be lost.

New barrels are prohibitively expensive except for a top grade gun with (lots of) sentimental value! (My view)

As others have said, the guns will have been made in Birmingham by one of the makers who supplied retailers, very likely W & C Scott/Webley & Scott, or possibly Midland Gun Co. - both good makers.

Many thanks for the quick replies. I'll probably pass on these and wait for a better pair, possibly from a Scottish maker. I do really like the lines on the A&N pair though and they look beautifully matched.

If I were to rebarrel the one gun, where would you recommend having it done?

All the best

I can only answer that I would not recommend having it done. Its just too expensive - and should be done to a pair as a pair really. Personally, I wouldn't even sleeve. I think your idea of waiting for a better prospect is the winner (for me).

Two things quickly come top mind. 1) Do you really (I mean do you KNOW) that you shoot game guns well enough to invest in a pair? 2) If, and only if, you know you can shoot qame guns well, then you might consider investing in sleeve(s) for one if, and only if, you know you are forever in love with them.

Take care that you are not infatuated because they seem an affordable bargain and could be a surrogate for a better gun you would really love. I'll look and render a value opinion in a few days (haven't looked through the Bonhams sale yet).

DDA

I agree with John. Do not consider re-barrelling.

Even sleeving will be doubtful in cost effectiveness.

A gun with 19 thou minimum but otherwise sound barrels will out live you as long as you do not dent it in the thin spot - you cannot shoot it out.

The price should reflect the thin barrels - they need to be cheap and otherwise very good.

[quote=Rocketman]Two things quickly come top mind. 1) Do you really (I mean do you KNOW) that you shoot game guns well enough to invest in a pair? [quote]

That's a good point, Don. However . . . if you find you DO like and shoot game guns well, a pair is not a bad investment. We often talk about having a "backup" gun. If you have a pair, then your backup gun is the same as your go-to gun. Thus, it can be worth the investment even if you never intend to use them as a pair. One of my A&N pair was in the shop for serious repair (my fault--really STUPID--not an issue with the gun) during bird season. All I did was switch to #2. And if you look at prices for pairs in this country, you may see that--at least on occasion--it's less than twice the value of one of them.

At first glance they appear to be a very well-matched pair. This is because they are photos of the same gun. Enlarged images of the pair from the auction site show stock graining, scratches and dings to be identical. Well-matched indeed.

Bill,

Good Eye!

Now that you mention it, it is obvious with out even enlarging the image....

Wonder what the other gun looks like ?

So both guns have 19 thou' walls ?,
franc

McKinney - I don't mean to come off as presumptuous, but do you really need a pair? Are you heavily involved in the shooting sports where you employ another guy as your loader?

I think you would be much better served by keeping your money and keeping your eye sharp for a single gun, selling domestically, which is not only sound in every regard but fits you well and has that certain pizazz that just calls out to you.

If you DO need a pair, then my second paragraph still serves as my advice, but for two guns.

Good Luck in your search and HAVE FUN finding your treasure!

McKinney, per my valuation method, I'd say the following. These guns appear to be Webley Screw-Grip actioned and of modest quality per the engraving (engraving usually matches the guns over-all quality grade closely) , not more than a second grade BLE, and that is likely a bit generous.. I'll say their current condition is similar to heavy use but no abuse (this is a bit generous considering the barrel that needs sleeving). Army & Navy brand is valued in the market at level three (note that gun quality is not considered in this number). So, BV3-OQ6-CC4 = $1,766 per gun. You might pay a tad bit of a premium for the case and the pair. If you want a bargain basement pair, these might be candidates; you will have trouble getting your money back most likely. IMO, $4,000 in your hands is the tippy top.

You might call Bonham's and get an overview of Lot #139; make sure the guns are of UK manufacture. Those guns look like a better buy to me and they might come cheaper (unless I missed something!!). You can fix stock issues a lot more cheaply and easily (usually) than barrel problems.

DDA

Don, would your brand value change if we knew who actually made the guns . . . since Army & Navy used several different makers? Possible to find that out, because A&N records are available through the University of Glasgow.

No, the name on the gun seems to be what the market values. At one time I thought the actual maker might have economic value, but I have been unable to identify any to date.

DDA