I've got a vintage Parker with a LOP of 13 3/4"
It's a 20 gauge with long barrels and tight chokes.
I've used a Galco slip-on pad to add 1/2" to my LOP but the shaped Silvers pad doesn't sit quite right inside the Galco.
Last evening, I slipped on a Galco barrel guard which sits mostly in front of the forend and when the gun is mounted and my left hand is half on the forend and half on the Galco barrel guard, it feels as if my LOP has been increased by at least 1/2" or more.

With no change between my right arm, my shoulder, the end of my Silvers pad, my trigger finger and the DT's of my gun, what's going on?
Thanks

This is common to all of us.(Assume Right shoulder, Right handed)
The relative position of the LH controls how much the gun clears the body during mounting and how much the gun must come back to settle in the shoulder pocket.If the gun is 1" shorter than our norm moving the LH 1" further forward will make the mount feel the same. It will only be when the mount is complete and the gun fired that the LOP discrepency will show up as such things as thumb in nose, bruised fingers etc.

Back to the future The extended left hand seemed to work well for these fellas

E.D. Fulford, Remington, winner of the 1898 GAH



Charles Grimm, Smith



Léon de Lunden of Belgium. Winner of the once and only demonstration sport of Live Pigeon shooting at the 1900 Paris Olympics; Grand Prix de Exposition Universalle de 1900.



Thomas Marshall, Cashmore, at the 1899 GAH (only two time winner, 97' & 99')

Bob, is that Silvers pad as smashed as it looks?

When hunting in cold weather most of us are attired in thermal underwear, a heavy jacket and sometimes a vest and a heavy shirt. I adjust my forehand to compensate for the different LOP's that clothing necessitates.

I removed it, hermetically sealed it, placed it in a museum where all can enjoy it and had a new Silvers pad professionally fits since that picture was taken.
Mea culpa.

Bob: I've had a similar perceived experience with a 21 Duck I own. The gun has typical 13 5/8" lop to one of those rock hard red Win pads. Normally I shoot 14 1/4-1/2" with ST and 14 7/8" lop with DT, but this Duck model feels pretty good to me as short as it is. It has long 32" barrels and weighs 8 lbs and I think that may have something to do with it. It does not seem LOP is all that impt for a tank of a gun like this Duck.

Hmmm.....32" Duck you say.
Hmmm.....13 5/8" LOP you say.
Hmmm.....Tank you say.

My kingdom for a normal LOP!

To those of you complaining about LOP, I am 6'4" and can tie my shoes without bending over. I dream of the day that I can buy a used gun with a checkered butt. Do you have any idea what a 1 1/2" Silvers pad weighs?
CHAZ

What Hugh said.... If I had a dollar for every time I have seen someone shoulder an English gun with a splinter forend and then hold the forend in the center with a gibbled up left hand and then state that "this stock is 2" too short for me" I need a
16 1/2"LOP.... Not

Extending the forend hand farther effectively changes the angle of the line of your shoulders in relation to the line of the gun.

13 5/8"? Isn't that the same gun you had advertised a couple weeks ago with a 14" LOP?

SRH

One and the same.
Truth be told, I find 14" to be a little short too.
Mine is as described. Other than the picture of my Duck,
my reference was regarding Buzz's gun and the Parker in my original post.
Gee Stan, lighten up a little buddy.

I wasn't scolding, Bob. I was just confused as to what you meant. Still a little confused, but that's normal for me.

That is one nice duck/sporting clays gun. I remembered it because I liked it so much.

All my best, SRH

No harm Stan.
I suppose I could have been clearer.
I seem to never miss an opportunity to post a picture of one of my guns,
even if a little artistic license is involved.

I like your Duck too, Bob. I'm not surprised it has a 14" LOP. My gun has a PG and 13 5/8" LOP which was the typical pre-1953 Duck, I believe. Later models, on special order, could be had with English stock and custom LOP at whatever the customer wanted, for a bit extra cost, like your beautiful straight gripped duck. My gun is Full and Full in both barrels, and not what most would consider a sporting clays gun. It was built to shoot ducks and geese with 3" lead magnum shells and well suited for that purpose. They are wonderful old duck guns IMHO. It's just too bad we can't shoot lead anymore!

Call me a glutten for punishment, I'll be shooting Skeet with mine tomorrow.


That's what I'm talking about. Past the mount, I find my head further back on the stock giving me the impression of a longer LOP.

Thanks.

That can create another problem in itself, when it comes to heavy recoiling guns, and/or high volume shooting. When the angle changes so that the axis of the gun is angled in an ever greater way to the body, the butt has more of a tendency to slide across the shoulder pocket upon recoil. If it's hard to picture, think of the ideal as having the axis of the gun at ninety degrees to an imaginary line drawn from one shoulder to the other. Recoil would be straight back into the shoulder pocket. The more that angle changes, the more the butt slides on recoil.

I have seen such severe evidence of that in Argentina that one fellow was bleeding through his shirt three days after returning home.

SRH

[/URL][/img] Bob: Here's a photo of my 'DUCK'. Notice the wood layout in the head and grip of the stock......nice and straight. Winchester carefully picked the wood for strength in these Magnum guns.

I owned an FN 16ga boxlock with english stock for about a year. Nice weight and balance on the gun, but I couldn't shoot the thing. I was fine on the skeet field, but in a real hunting situation (translate: hurried) my finger would go to the rear trigger. I might as well have been using a single shot. I haven't shown much interest in straight stocks since. Anyone else experienced this?

JJD: Sorry you had problems with your FN. Actually straight grips are best suited for double trigger guns because it is slightly easier to manipulate the index finger going from one trigger to the next with double triggers. One who has never used DTs needs to spend a lot of time on the skeet field manipulating the triggers. It requires practice switching back and forth. I think it's good practice to shoot back trigger first too. The more practice the better one gets with DTs. My first hunt with a gun with DTs many moons ago, I had a single shot all day long and considered giving up too. Glad I didn't because now I prefer DTs. Only way you can instantly go to tighter choke if game gets uP way out there.

I shoot "my" guns, regardless of LOP. When I shot I-Skeet, I shot a 3200 with a 13 3/4" stock just because it simplified the mount and allowed a more agressive swing. The last gun I bought for vintage sporting clays has a 15 3/4" LOP. It took me at least a week to get used to it, and now it is very comfortable. I prefer to have my nose very close to my thumb, but it isn't neccesary to break a target.

This interests me - because I have always 'perceived' my guns as being different lengths, whereas measurement indicates the are (almost) the same. All my guns (I have over a dozen in the cabinet) are between 14 3/8 and 14 5/8 when measured on a gauge. One feels noticeably short, a Darne, and the reason is that the standing breech is right above the triggers, whereas on an English gun it is a little forward. This, with the Darne, whilst the trigger is in the right place with respect to the shoulder, the standing breech is a little nearer the eye.

Similarly, single trigger guns 'feel' longer - because the measurement made to the trigger is about where the rear trigger on a double trigger gun would be.

I also have a theory that on our side of the Atlantic we tend to have stocks a little longer, a little straighter in drop and with more cast. The reason is we shoot with the gun mounted a little more 'obliquely' rather than fully 'square on' as we are generally taught (for a right hander) to have the left foot rather forward and to bring the gun well up to the face, raising the shoulder slightly as we do so.

The topic is discussed in detail in John Brindle's Shotgun Shooting: Techniques and Technology.

Hoof,

They make those new microcell pads. I have one that is 1.25" and it weighs about 2 ounces.

My problem wasn't with the double trigger. All but 1 of my doubles have dt's. The straight stock changed the way my finger addressed the trigger. I'm sure I was just holding the gun wrong, but the straight stock is what allowed me to grip too far back in a rush. I've never encountered the problem with a pow or pg stock because the ergonomics of the stock force you to grip the wood in the same place every time.

It was likely a problem with the thumbhole being back too far.

The 1 1/2" Silvers pad in stock form is 12.25 oz.

I weighed a Griffin and Howe repro Silver, uncut, with plugs and screws, and it weighs 6.7 ounces. I don't know how much an inch of wood weighs, but someone will tell us. The difference is probably very small.

The model 32 Remington I bought from Hoof had a 1 1/2" Galazan Silvers on it. It weighs 7.8 oz or almost 1/2 pound. I replaced it with a 3/4" Hawkins, the gun now weighs 7 lb 5 oz, it was almost 8lbs before. Made quite a difference in balance and handling.

It seems to me that the important measurement is not that from butt to trigger, but instead from butt to where the trigger hand grips, as long as the finger will still reach the trigger. If the distance to trigger were so critical I don't see how one could shoot a double trigger as the distance between the two triggers can easily be 3/4" to 1", yet it is easy to do with a slight change in the trigger finger position. If you can reach the trigger and your thumb doesn't hit your nose, I suspect that shooters can adapt to a fairly wide range of LOP and it really isn't that critical and compensation can be made as discussed above. Eightbore's 13 3/4 to 15 3/4" is quite a difference, yet he shoots both successfully.

I just found out that you can get an AYA "off the shelf" at 15" LOP. Now I just need to sell every other gun I have, mortgage the kids and I am in business.

CHAZ

When I was fitted by Chris Batha a few years ago he gave me three different LOPs based on grip type: 14 7/8" pistol grip, 15 1/8" POW, and 15 3/8" for a straight grip. You can see the need for this difference by simply watching the movement of your arm as you rotate your hand from a straight grip position to a pistol grip.

While I believe that LOP is the least important of all stock dimensions (compared to cast and drop), I find that the lighter the gun the more important it is to have sufficient LOP, particularly if they are straight grip.