Why is it that laser engraving seems so crude in comparison to hand engraving? I would have thought with CNC machinery and computer aided tools today's engraving should be so much finer and integrate than the work of old. I dislike the Spanish and Italian guns for this very reason.

I agree with you but one exception is the laser engraving on Boxall and Edmiston guns.

Many of the Spanish guns are not even laser engraved, but roll engraved and these guns are a fraction of the cost of a Boxall gun. I suppose you get what you pay for.

As with all technology, improvements march on in an unrelenting manner: One day (I didn't say one FINE day); laser engraving will be not only as good, but better than the best hand engraving, and it will be absolutely flawless.
The entire design will be created, not by some genius with graver and a hammer, but by someone sitting in front of one of these computers. To prove our old gun is hand engraved, we will be forced to show the tiny "flaws" or mistakes that lasers just won't make.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Boxal and Edminston laser engraving is superb. It can do in one day what hand engraving would take 200 hours, with proportional cost. If lasers do to engraving what they did to checkering, I am all for them.

As to computer invasion, this started in best guns being made by CNC machines back in the late 1980s.

The problem with CNC engraving is that it can not reproduce the subtle variations the the human hand lends to the art. When engraving by hand the craftsman is rocking the tool from side to side to go around corners, create shading...etc. This creates intentional variations in the widths/depths of the lines cut, which is pleasing to the eye.

Machine cut engraving is almost lifeless and static in comparison. It is almost impossible to reproduce the same effects with computer generated machine cuts, which are very uniform and repetitious. Even if you were able to program a tool path on a 4th/5th axis machine which got close to reproducing the quality of hand cut engraving. To make any money at all doing it, you would have to reproduce the same engraving on many guns that are themselves the same. There are no two hand engraved guns, that are exactly the same.

Roll engraving can be better than machine cut, because the better dies are usually cut by hand. The cylinder engraving on Colt percussion revolvers is a good example of this. It more closely reproduces the look of hand cut engraving.

Laser engraving does seem to hold good promise, and there is some excellent work being done with it now. It seems to do best on the heavily relieved, chased type engraving. Like everything else, these technologies will advance with time.

The tiny flaws and imperfections are what give hand engraving character and soul, no machine can give you that.... at least not yet.

and we can all have the mona lisa in our homes.not the original but a laser scanned copy.so there you go.

I beg to differ. I do not understand a CNC machine or how it works but if you are coping a hand engraved pattern then the reproduction should also contain those flaws. What I don't think has happened is the higher end gun manufacturers insisting on quality laser or pressed engraving. If they did the quality would increase dramatically. What we are seeing for the most part are low end 'trade guns' with poor embellishments that not so sophisticated marketers are trying to impress us into buying.

I think some assume at least some designs will be created on a graphic design interface rather than directly copied from one hand-cut on a firearm.

I don't agree however that imperfections -- however small -- add something like soul to engraving. For me, it's found in beautifully executed hand-cut variations of depth, angle, shading, that likely won't be found in designs born on a graphic design tool. I could well be wrong.

Jay

http://www.boxallandedmiston.co.uk/shotgun-galleries/gunengraving-gallery/

The above is an example of what modern laser engraving, designed by an engraver, can be. It has nothing whatsoever to do with stamping, rolling, or laser techniques transferred from the sign making craft to guns.

Lasers can and do follow varying depths of cut, angle, as well as sculpting to give same results as chesello and intaglio. I am not sure as to the capabilities regarding fine bulino effecs.

I don't think anyone would claim to be a "fan" of laser engraving. But makers are pushing for improvements in quality, and they are showing up. Compare the following three photos. The first is a recently made Caesar Guerini with laser engraving (they claim that the engraving is hand finished, but don't specify what that means exactly). The second is a Cole Custom hand engraved (and signed) by an Italian engraver. The third is a hand engraved Arrieta. All three guns cost roughly the same. {Sorry the pics are not all of the same quality].

Correct....call them what you will, imperfections one way or another

mabe we will have a resurrection of a craftsman type period.everything we love about the classic ,antique, guns is missing from the laser /roll stamped guns.

Can many people tell the difference, without a magnifying glass, between the Boxall and Edminston style of laser engraving and hand cut and sculpted work? I have my doubts. Especially on the heavier styles with deep relief and stippled ground heavily inked.

I mean variations executed as intended -- I think of imperfections as unintended.

I can certainly make the difference. As someone else said laser engraving is dead and lifeless.
It's like having a fake fire using gas instead of wood... It does warm you up, but I completely fail to see the reason to go there in the first place.
Of course, those things do sell, so I am probably wrong in a commercial way.

Best regards,
WC-

There is no need for a resurrection - there are more than a few good engravers out there today. AA Brown lists engraving costs (2012) as an additional $6-25k on top of a $60k base price for a new gun. That engraving cost alone is more than many people are prepared to spend on a shotgun.

The reality is that it is a whole lot cheaper to buy good engraving on a vintage gun than it is to buy it on a new gun. If you are buying a new gun, hand engraving is simply too expensive for most buyers (unless you are willing to consider a Turkish gun).

Oh the irony of it all! MC is a VERY talented engraver.

As someone who handles the commissioning of engraving fairly regularly, I would disagree about the costs being prohibitive. Very nice engraving can be had without mortgaging the farm, but usually not from a top tier UK maker.

What might be more impressive than laser engraving is EDM, or electrical discharge machining. I've been told that process is what Beretta has been using for years on their Silver Pigeon 686-7 line of o/u's. The Silver Pigeon II is the most amazing of these, in my opinion. The heavy-chiseled effect on the side panels of the receiver on these guns is remarkable in its depth and quality, rivaling hand engraving to the point that many wouldn't know the difference. A laser just cannot achieve this same effect yet.

I have a Beretta Gallery SPII 20 ga with 30" wide rib barrels, which is a late '90's gun, that has a darker, richer nickel finish than some of the later guns in this model, and the engraving never ceases to impress me with its quality and detail every time I take it out.

My apologies to MC if it appeared like I was trying to tell him something he did not know about his craft.

And I am not trying to suggest laser engraving is aesthetically equivalent to hand engraving. If there is something prettier than the hand engraving on Lindner Daly Diamond grade, I have yet to see it. But based on my experience, commissioning hand engraving for a new gun is either very complicated or expensive. Most makers of production guns won't sell them in the white. Perazzi allows you to order hand engraving but for a gun that will cost at least $15k and more likely $20k. Rich Cole was offering an option for hand engraved Berettas but has stopped. Guerini claims that their guns can be ordered with custom engraving but my several inquiries with them about that have made it clear that they really are not interested in making that happen.

Even "lower end" bespoke guns with hand engraving will run $15k or more. Spanish guns with quality hand engraving (like an Arrieta 801) cost ~$15k. Verney Carron will allow you to order custom engraving on their Atelier guns, but those run $15k+. You can order custom engraving for a CSMC Foxes but that will run well over $20k.

You can buy a vintage gun with little or no engraving like a Fox Sterly and have it custom engraved. Based on what I learned, that can easily become a $10k project and will almost certainly result in a loss if the gun is ever sold. Plus there are the potential risks with annealing and rehardening the action to allow for the engraving.

I don't mean to suggest that the value of hand engraving is not worth the investment, but the market reality is that a new gun with hand engraving requires at least a $15-20k investment.

I am not trying to be a wet blanket - please tell me I am missing something.

Engraving is a matter of subjective taste. Some have it and some of us do not. I fall too much into the latter group. But even with that admission laser or cnc engraving will never impress me as much as hand engraving. For the masses I think laser engraving is about what they expect or even exceeds expectations. As long was engravers have enough commissions to keep them employed with a decent backlog they will be fine. Just as photography did not end portrait painting machine engraving will not end hand engraving.

To me machine engraving is too even, too symmetrical, too much like cookie cutter work. Others like that style. The heavy Germanic engraving also leaves me behind. Taste vary thank God or everyone would want my wife and I like her truck too much to let her go.

The above post is a laser engraved boxlock. The work has obviously been designed by someone who knows engraving, judging by the layout and the design. The work took a lot less time than by and. It enhances the gun, at least in my eyes.

It is the Boxall and Edminston boxlock.

If you don't insist on full coverage, you can get first-rate engraving on a shotgun for far less.

Jay

The age of the machine is upon us. Laser engraving, in general is not, in my opinion, up to the best hand engraved works. However, it is up to the less than best hand efforts. Given time, the laser efforts will rise to meet those "best" standards. As it is, laser engraved birds really look like birds; dogs like dogs, etc. That cannot always be said of the hand engraved versions.
In the future, those with the funds and inclination can and will opt for the hand engraved work, simply because they can. Look at the people who collect expensive watches when a Timex can probably keep time at essentially the same level of accuracy.

It is my opinion that there will always be a market for art ala hand craftsmanship.

DDA

And I am thankful for that Rocketman. As for laser engraving, at least everybody can own one...and just like everybody else's.

I can order a customized one-off T shirt with a picture of my dog or my spouse on it. I just send them a picture, they feed it into the computer, and then print the picture on the Tee.

Then there is three dimensional printing.

It would seem that in a year or twenty years the same could be done with laser or EDM engraving. A unique design is converted to zeros and ones and the machine engraves the gun.

What a load of romanticized bull.

"and just like everybody else's" conveniently forgets the "standard" patterns that ALL the gunmakers used and use today.

A tool is a tool. Engraver people don't cut those patterns with their fingernails. Hammer/chisel or laser it's still just the engravers tool. A masterpiece can be written longhand or composed on a computer. Tools do not define the artistry.

Imperfections make the charm of hand engraving? That is just at stupid. So the finest, most capable engravers, the ones that approach perfection so closely that their mistakes can't be found must be "lifeless" and despised as well? I want to spend $25K on some mistake loaded engraving so everybody knows it was done by a craftsman. Oh, yeah, fer sure.

And out of just what evening mist do you suppose those laser patterns arose? And where do you think "traditional" patterns came from? I have a book full of patterns that are ALL composed of stock elements. But, somewhere along the line before it got to steel, some artistic, creative person had to put those things together.

And THEN, the general whine here is always about the loss of the traditional styles and look - and THEN here you whine about the laser copying that look. That Boxall and Edminston boxlock would likely blow right past about, well, all of you and never be pinged as anything but hand done. If I could afford it they'd be cutting a few of my guns right now.

I'd bet some vital body parts that it will be few years before scanning patterns and refining the cutting will produce engraving that will defy criticism. And the engraver people doing it will be as honored as the ones are now. Actually that 3D capability is here now and just needs a real market.

get real, people

have a day

Dr.WtS

What a load of romanticized bull.

"and just like everybody else's" conveniently forgets the "standard" patterns that ALL the gunmakers used and use today.

A tool is a tool. Engraver people don't cut those patterns with their fingernails. Hammer/chisel or laser it's still just the engravers tool. A masterpiece can be written longhand or composed on a computer. Tools do not define the artistry.

Imperfections make the charm of hand engraving? That is just at stupid. So the finest, most capable engravers, the ones that approach perfection so closely that their mistakes can't be found must be "lifeless" and despised as well? I want to spend $25K on some mistake loaded engraving so everybody knows it was done by a craftsman. Oh, yeah, fer sure.

And out of just what evening mist do you suppose those laser patterns arose? And where do you think "traditional" patterns came from? I have a book full of patterns that are ALL composed of stock elements. But, somewhere along the line before it got to steel, some artistic, creative person had to put those things together.

And THEN, the general whine here is always about the loss of the traditional styles and look - and THEN here you whine about the laser copying that look. That Boxall and Edminston boxlock would likely blow right past about, well, all of you and never be pinged as anything but hand done. If I could afford it they'd be cutting a few of my guns right now.

I'd bet some vital body parts that it will be few years before scanning patterns and refining the cutting will produce engraving that will defy criticism. And the engraver people doing it will be as honored as the ones are now. Actually that 3D capability is here now and just needs a real market.

get real, people

have a day

Dr.WtS