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Posted By: Kyrie Armas Ugartechea - 08/19/16 11:11 PM
From:

http://www.bilozir.net/shotguns/ugartechea.htm

“Ugartechea (Spain) Stops Production - All Stock Guns 25% Off. Please contact us at fineguns@bilozir.net or 403.938.6066 for more information.”

I was thinking Ugartechea would outlast Grulla, but apparently not. Armas Ugartechea is effectively gone.
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 12:10 AM
Grulla made game guns for William Powell and make game guns for William Evans. These are very nice game guns selling for a lot less than in house English-made guns. They also sell in Germany and France were there are fewer but on average wealthier hunters. That is why Grulla is still around. I predict that in not too distant future most Basque makers will go the way of the American Middle Class ie. disappear. cry
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 12:22 AM
That is terrible news. I had an Uggie sidelock gun once but traded it for an E Grade Lefever. I liked the Uggie, but I wouldn't trade back...Geo
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 02:28 AM
Perfect. Now I just have to wait for the value of my 1972 vintage Uggy Falcon to triple from it's listed price of, oh, about $150, back in the day.

Should happen any day now. I'm sure of it.

That said, it is a pity. I could probably afford a nice new Uggy, except for having to pay $900 a month for family health insurance, compliments of the criminal-in-chief, and a supreme court that basically said, "the public elects a criminally stupid president, the public gets a criminally stupid president, don't ask us to save you".

Hope the Uggy workers end up better than us. Wouldn't take much.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: Irrational Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 09:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Jagermeister
Grulla made game guns for William Powell and make game guns for William Evans. These are very nice game guns selling for a lot less than in house English-made guns. They also sell in Germany and France were there are fewer but on average wealthier hunters. That is why Grulla is still around. I predict that in not too distant future most Basque makers will go the way of the American Middle Class ie. disappear. cry


Difficult to disagree with this. I have a pair of William Evans/Grullas due to arrive in the next month or two: would have loved to have bought British but, when you can't get one British gun for the price of a pair of Grullas, it's difficult to do so. Sure there will be people with the bank balance to go the other way (and I'm glad those folk are keeping British production alive) but I doubt I'm going to feel short changed when out in the field and would prefer to spend any surplus money on shooting and vintage guns (where I can still buy British).

Assuming they manufacturers are passing it on, anyone looking to buy this year is probably going to think twice as a result of the GBP:EUR exchange rate. Last year a pound bought 1.37 Euro, today it's 1.17 thanks to the clowns who didn't think their referendum vote would actually count for anything. I can't see how this won't hurt Spanish makers through reduced sales and/or margin.

I've often wondered what the total annual production is these days for new artisan made guns and how that maps to demand: I just don't see many of my friends (40s-50s, most with pretty comfortable incomes) buying in that market. Those that haven't been fortunate enough to inherit/be given guns seem to take the view that something like a Beretta SP or 486 is all the gun they need - and in many ways they're right. Anyone younger has even less hope of buying these guns new...

It's interesting though that the Spaniards have seemingly chosen to stay traditional whereas a number of smaller British makers seem to have embraced technology, focused on (or at least offer) O/U guns, and appear to be growing their markets. I guess we'll never know if Ugartechea would have been in better shape with an O/U in their catalogue.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 11:03 AM
Of academic value only at this point in time, but sometimes trivia is interesting in and of itself.

Originally Posted By: Irrational

--- snip ---
I've often wondered what the total annual production is these days for new artisan made guns and how that maps to demand
--- snip ---

For the Spanish artisanal gun makers (like the late Ugartechea) production and demand has a one-to-one relationship. The Spanish artisanal shotgun maker doesn’t begin work on a gun without an order and a deposit.

Originally Posted By: Irrational

--- snip ---
I guess we'll never know if Ugartechea would have been in better shape with an O/U in their catalogue.
--- snip ---

Ugartechea cataloged both box lock and side lock O/U shotguns for many years. They were dropped from the catalog due to lack of orders.
Posted By: bbman3 Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 12:48 PM
They made some high grade guns and I have a 20 ga 1030 and 28 ga and they are first class. Bobby
Posted By: Irrational Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: Kyrie
Of academic value only at this point in time, but sometimes trivia is interesting in and of itself.

Originally Posted By: Irrational

--- snip ---
I've often wondered what the total annual production is these days for new artisan made guns and how that maps to demand
--- snip ---

For the Spanish artisanal gun makers (like the late Ugartechea) production and demand has a one-to-one relationship. The Spanish artisanal shotgun maker doesn’t begin work on a gun without an order and a deposit.


I'm not entirely sure I agree: there are new Spanish guns available off the shelf in London and the sale of stock guns was linked to in the original post. Being pedantic, yes there's an order on the factory, but a speculative one from a dealer rather than firm from an end customer.

The point I was driving at though was more one around interest in just how many guns are now made each year by small producers (we can't be talking big numbers but curious if anyone knows just how low production has now fallen).
Posted By: John Roberts Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 02:00 PM
Just a wild guess from a seat-of-the-pants feel, but maybe 50 guns a year, give or take. Would not be shocked to learn it was less.
JR
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 02:09 PM
They're trying to fight their way into a world market that may or may not accept them and leaving a market that the Turks have taken over. They need a good business advisor with a proven record but, an expert in the gun industry may be a little hard to find.

You would think that with most countries clamping down on repeaters that in the double barrel market demand would exceed supply, apparent not for Armas Ugartechea.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 05:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Irrational

I'm not entirely sure I agree: there are new Spanish guns available off the shelf in London and the sale of stock guns was linked to in the original post. Being pedantic, yes there's an order on the factory, but a speculative one from a dealer rather than firm from an end customer.

I suspect we’re coming at this from different directions.

I’m writing from the view point of the Spanish gun maker and his “end customer” is whoever pays for the gun. For him, there is nothing speculative about the sale, and the gun maker has no interest in what his customer does with the gun he has bought; shoot it, sell it, gift it, throw it in the ocean, it’s all the same to the maker .

I understand you are writing from the viewpoint of some re-seller, who will buy some number of shotguns, configured in whatever way he believes will allow the timely re-sale of the guns at a profit. That’s speculative indeed, and he must be concerned with whether the actual demand meets/exceeds his inventory.

As an aside, there are a couple of interesting related topics lurking here.

Firstly, I could make a good argument that any Spanish artisanal shotgun purchased by a retailer and offered for re-sale isn’t a new gun. At best it’s a second hand gun, offered NIB.

Secondly, buying an artisanal Spanish shotgun from a retailer, said gun being one from a lot of such guns made to the retailer’s specification, has a lot in common with buying a secondhand, NIB, custom made business suit that was made to someone else’s measure. It seems to me to obviate any advantage in buying a custom made shotgun.

There is enough controversy in either of those two discussions to keep this group jawing for years :-)

Sorry for the digression… back on topic.

Originally Posted By: Irrational

The point I was driving at though was more one around interest in just how many guns are now made each year by small producers (we can't be talking big numbers but curious if anyone knows just how low production has now fallen).


Largely unknown and unknowable. The internal market for new, artisanal, shotguns in Spain is very close to zero. That market was killed by the new gun tax back circa 2008, and the consequences of that tax. The external market for Spanish artisanal shotguns has always been very small and is getting smaller for a number of reasons (e.g. world economic conditions, shrinking opportunity to own guns and/or hunt/shoot, tightening gun control actions, and especially the tightening export rules in Spain and the EU generally, to name only a few reasons).

Back in the days when the “big boys” (Victor Sarasqueta and the original AyA) were at their peak (say, roughly, 1965) their yearly production was in the tens of thousands of guns and some years topped one-hundred thousand guns. The current big gun makers (based on number of employees/shareholders) (e.g. AyA, Grulla, Arrieta, etc.) likely didn’t have orders totaling more than a few hundred side lock guns so far this year (box lock orders are a wild card). The smaller, one/two man, shops (a la Zubillaga) may not fill orders for more than a dozen guns in a year.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 06:39 PM
Write the book Kyrie! Please...Geo
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 07:00 PM
That market is smaller than for the guns?

_______________________________
There are more important things in life than being right.
Posted By: gunut Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 07:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Write the book Kyrie! Please...Geo


I'd write the book "now" also.....looks like there will be no reason to wait 4 new chapters or additions....and with most secondary guns once they stop making them ...for the most part interest in their history wanes....
Posted By: Irrational Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 07:23 PM
Indeed, it would be interesting, Kyrie!

For the very reason you mention, the artisan guns available in London always intrigue me. Are people really that impulsive/impatient that they're not willing to wait? I doubt anyone buying such a weapon doesn't have others at their disposal...

Interesting that the production figures are so low in Spain, I'd heard of the tax issue but hadn't realised they'd been hit so hard by it. To add an international dimension, I understand that Purdey's production runs at around 75 shotguns pa and the likes of Piotti are able to run at a rate of around 50 pa.

Unless there are lots of manufacturers out there that fly well below the radar I wonder if global production of sidelocks even makes it into the multiple thousands these days?

It's a shame that so few are willing, or able, to pay for craftsmanship. Sadly not a state of affairs unique to fine guns...
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 07:46 PM
I’ve been a bit down with the news of Ugartechea as the next Spanish shotgun maker to close its doors. It’s a sad thing.

This morning, in a kind of memorial, I took an Ugartechea model 41, chambered for the 2.75 inch .410 shell, made circa 1956, out of the safe and used it to shoot two rounds of wobble trap. Here are some photos, shot in Spain by a dear friend, in the shop of Diego Godoy, who was restocking the gun to my measure with my wood:







I was shooting on a public range, just before a clays tournament, so it was quite crowded. The guns there ranged for ugly and utilitarian quite handsome and utilitarian. And not one had the style or the grace of that old, Ugartechea, .410.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/20/16 08:03 PM
Originally Posted By: Irrational

For the very reason you mention, the artisan guns available in London always intrigue me. Are people really that impulsive/impatient that they're not willing to wait? I doubt anyone buying such a weapon doesn't have others at their disposal...


I cannot speak to England, but can offer some observations about the people I’ve chatted with here in the USA on just that subject.

Many are afraid of the lack of direct contact between themselves and the gun maker. There is a fear of being unable to communicate their desires, and a fear they would not get the gun they wanted. So they settle for a choice from a more-or-less local re-seller’s inventory, that they can return if it doesn’t live up to expectations.

A surprising number of people have no concept of proper stock fit, or their own needs in terms of the best stock dimensions for them, personally. Even those who understand the potential importance of a properly fitted stock don’t know their needs, or have any intent (or means) of being fitted.

Those are two of the reasons people here in the States are content to buy a Spanish side lock from a re-seller.

Speaking for myself, I’d rather buy a used gun than have a new gun made. I’ve found I can buy a used gun for a fifth to a tenth of the cost of a nearly identical new gun. It has been relatively cheap to have such a gun restored and re-stocked to my measure with a nice piece of wood I’ve acquired and supplied.

Alas, it’s becoming harder and harder to do that, as the resources in Spain dry up.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/22/16 11:22 PM
Re fitting: The fitter may be right about what fits you, but it may also cause adjustment to the way you shoot. Example:

Several years back, our Ruffed Grouse Society offered a pheasant hunt to be auctioned at an RGS banquet. Our hunt went to a banquet in Alaska, where a couple guys bought it. Showed up, having flown their dogs down to Iowa--so pretty serious hunters. One of them had two guns with him: A bespoke Spanish sidelock with dimensions from a fitting he'd just had, and an old Parker he'd shot for years.

First day of the hunt, the guy could not hit squat with the Spanish gun. So he tells me: I'm going to shoot my Parker tomorrow. He does, and he shoots it quite well. Suspicious that there's likely significant differences in fit between the two, I ask him to get out the Spanish gun. Suspicions confirmed. The stock on the Spaniard is close to an inch longer, and has significantly less drop. He told me that he shot quite well using the fitter's try gun with those dimensions.

At which point I broke the news to him that I didn't think he'd ever be able to shoot both guns well. Because of the difference, he'd have to stick with one or the other. As an experienced hunter and having shot the old Parker for years, he'd adapted to dimensions that would have horrified the fitter. But he was used to it. Given time, he'd probably get equally used to the Spaniard . . . but then he'd have to hang the Parker on the wall.

People new to the game often do better with a fitting than those who've been at it for some time. The latter group may have figured out roughly what they think their dimensions are, and have adjusted to guns that fit that way. Changing what they're used to . . . it's like teaching that old dog new tricks. It can be done, but it's likely easier with a puppy.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/23/16 03:29 AM
The best balanced shotgun I've ever owned was a Spanish sidelock 12 gauge built by AMR. I don't hunt enough upland game to put out the money for a new Spanish shotgun now and the used ones are way out of my dimensions. Still shake my head over selling that Spaniard.

Because who in their right mind would rough hunt with no dog with a shotgun having a 15 1/2 inch length of pull??
Posted By: Kyrie Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/23/16 07:27 PM
Originally Posted By: treblig1958
The best balanced shotgun I've ever owned was a Spanish sidelock 12 gauge built by AMR. I don't hunt enough upland game to put out the money for a new Spanish shotgun now and the used ones are way out of my dimensions. Still shake my head over selling that Spaniard.

Because who in their right mind would rough hunt with no dog with a shotgun having a 15 1/2 inch length of pull??


PM sent.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/24/16 12:56 AM
Thanks Kyrie, smile
Posted By: docbill Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/24/16 12:12 PM
My favorite quail gun is an Uggy. I'm sorry to here of their closing.
Posted By: NL31 Re: Armas Ugartechea - 08/25/16 07:07 PM
Irrational, which model did you order? My father and I ordered two William Evans Connaught 12 bore guns last summer and we received them in February. The guns have exceeded our already high expectations. The finish and engraving are excellent and I love the way it feels and shoots. My father also visited the Grulla Armas factory in Eibar, Spain, an experience he definitely recommends.
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