How does one differentiate a VL&D Model 14E from an 18E? Also, is there a way to determine date of production on one of these guns? I'm guessing 1930s from VL&D history, but is there more that can be determined?









A light little 20 that some clod-fisted nimrod has buggered almost every screw on. The ejectors are also fairly wanky. Still.....the price is right.

Bob Beach is the man to contact for that info.

Not 1930's. VL&D had been absorbed by Abercrombie & Fitch by that time. Also, a 30's gun would carry a Belgian date code. That gun does not. 1924 or later, the gun would have gauge and chamber length in MM--20-65 in the case of that gun--marked on the flats. Yours, lacking that mark and the date code, is pre-1922. As noted above, Bob Beach at Griffin & Howe can almost certainly provide you with information. G&H has the old VL&D/Abercrombie records.

Nice gun. Good luck!

I seem to recall that at some point in time the address for VL&D changed from New York to Chicago. I do not have this info at hand, can anyone confirm or refute this & give the date if it is indeed true.

Miller, I believe the Chicago firm of which you speak was VL&A: Von Lengerke & Antoine.

I have a couple of Francottes. I compared my guns to those shown on Guns International. There were several 14E's (more common) and I may have seen the 18E on either Gunbroker or on GI, too. I saved a couple advertisements with photos if you want me to send them to you.

What did you pay for the 20 bore?

The differences in the two models show on the different checkered side panels (on both models) and also on the balls or fences. The rest of the engraving varies on individual guns, it appears. There is not a great differnce between the two models; slight cosmetics, and little difference in price...although prices on these can range from $1400 (pretty low) to $3000.

Larry- the 18E I have is both stamped 12-65 and 2-5/8 for chambers. The original chambers on my two Francotte 12's measured 2-5/8". One was made in 1926, the other 1891. The older gun has no chamber marking but is 2-5/8".

I used to live in Chicago area. I remember going to the very nice Ambercrombie and Fitch store there back in the 60's. I was kind of intimidated by the expensive outfits there. The company was founded in 1892 and probably had its first store in NYC. They bought out VL&D in 1928. The original Ambercrombie business went bankrupt in about 1976.

Larry;
I believe you are right on the VL&A instead of VL&D. Was the Von Lengerke part of it the same outfit just with a different partner or was there no connection between the two firms.

Gentlemen, thank you! Pre-1922 eh? It seems like the balls are more carved on the 18s I've seen on-line. It's definitely not plain (although the wood is). I shot it yesterday to make sure the tubes weren't as abused as the rest of it. Everything seems to regulate just fine and the triggers and safety were OK. It's been back-bored so much that there is no distinctive end to the chambers. Accordingly, I shot both 2 1/2 & 2 3/4-inch stuff (even the cheap Cabela's Herters loads) with no discernible difference noted. This gun is really light so both belt you a bit. Is this thing worth a K? It should make a great travel & kid gun (w/light loads).

Also, are those dovetail lumps? I would have thought with Siemens tubes it would be chopper lump. No matter though, too nice of a gun to pass up.

VL&A is referred to as a Chicago branch of VL&D, according what I have read.

Does this gun have (now) 2-3/4" chambers? I certainly would not call it a kid's gun. And, at 1K it is a bargain if the barrels are good and stock hasn't been shortened.

Little Creek: It's clearly marked with 2 1/2 chambers but they aren't that now. Other than the aesthetics, everything seems to be proper on it (26-inch tubes, 14 3/8 LOP to a horn plate). It's been shamelessly abused by somebody in it's past. For a gun as obviously well-made as this Francotte, it just boggles my mind that some idiot would do that to the screws on the bottom of the action. They've been repaired and filed (too-wide), but they no-longer index. The toe of the stock has been somewhat in-artfully repaired as well. But, as mentioned earlier, the wood is fairly plain (I confess... I am spoiled). It has the period-correct shallow POW grip and the checkering is absolutely first rate. I measured it at the shop (but don't have that info at the moment). I'd guess about 5 1/2 lbs and fairly open chokes. With a cinch-on pad I shoot it passably well.

Miller, included in Bob Beach's information on a Francotte I own (it's a 1930's A&F import)is the following note: "VL&A was purchased along with VL&D in 1929." Which makes it sound like they were separate entities. But given the "VL" part of the name, it certainly seems logical there was some relationship.

Scroll down on the home page to "other useful information". Click on this and then click on "dates of manufacture", then to Francotte. Your gun has an unusual stock with no checkering on the cheeks. Show us a picture of the stock. It looks like it could be a restock.

eightbore: thank you for that! Photobucket is being a pain. I'll keep trying. Wood matches quite well with forend, and checkering is also a match. It is odd that the panels aren't checkered. Using the "other useful information" section here, it would appear that this mid-grade gun was made in 1910.

Finally.





I wish the rest of the gun looked this good.

@ LLoyd3
Those are most definitely dovetailed lumps.
Siemens has nothing to do with chopper/ dove tails lumps.
As a matter of fact, I can't quite recall seeing a chopper lump Siemens Steel barrel set ( not to say that does not exist)...
Have you measured the wall thickness?
I would highly recommend you do that.
Best regards,
WC-

I have a 14E from 1935. Fences fully engraved, but not deep chiseled like on that gun. Floor plate also fully engraved, but different pattern. Panels are checkered on my gun.

To me the gun looks either restocked or the the side panels where sanded of, does the checkering match the forend? also chopper lump barrels where only on francotte eagle grades which where also where siemens martin

Also is there initials right below the pistol grip? if it does then its the original stock and not refinished

What is your serial number. The number can be searched in the G&H system.

I have recently seen examples of No. 2 and what are called 14E's on websites that have plain sidepanels. I don't think that necessarily means a restock.

I have a fine cased Francotte 14E 20 gauge with 28 inch barrels made in 1954 that is original with no checkered side panels. Bobby

eightbore: 70099, but...by my reading there is a $50 charge for that service these days. Well worth it if someone was really curious, but mine is sated for the moment. From looking at lots of guns from this period, I'm guessing that this stock is original to the gun and that this particular unit just didn't get the panels checkered when it was completed. I've been idly looking for a nice petite little 20 for some time and when this one came up I seized the moment, so to speak. It's not exactly what I was looking for but it will suffice for now. From recent experience, 20-gauge is far-easier to locate (than say.... 28) in the more rural sections of country where I usually find myself.

From what I'm reading here, it's easy to get the impression that anyone with more than jingly money could walk into VL&D and order whatever he pleased from Francotte.

My 1899 12ga 14E has checkered cheeks, full engraving but not deeply chiselled fences. The delicate specifications suggest to me the owner must have had in mind a 28-inch barrel custom grouse gun. It feels like a sub-gauge.

Engraved on the rib is "Made for C.W. Billings." He was captain of the victorious 1912 US Olympic trap shooting team, "the man through whose efforts the team was made up", according to an old Sporting Life report that Drew sent to me.

70099 is in the Griffin and Howe database. Send an email to Bob Beach and see what he says. He is a very nice guy.

Lloyd,

Francotte 70099 was received at Von Lengerke & Detmold in NYC on December 22, 1909. The model is recorded as a Grade "AA". That model was a featherweight game gun - please see my list of Francotte models at

Francotte Models

The post is the eighth one down the page.

1909 was a time of model transition at VL&D. It is understandable that photos of your gun show features that other Francotte owners may question. In earlier years the model "AA" would have had scalloped & checkered sidelock-shaped side panels, intercepting sears and triangular shaped engraving on the barrels at the breech. Also, this model in earlier years would not have had the dimpled pins in the receiver. Here is a photo of a similar Francotte model made in 1901 (actually it is a model "A" which was the same gun but in a heavier configuration).



In 1910, VL&D renamed most of the Francotte models and the models "A" and "AA" became the grade "No.17.5" which meant that, like the "A" and "AA" before it, it sold for $175. This model was dropped by VL&D after WWI.

Your gun was sold in 1910.

If you have any further questions, you might contact me through Griffin & Howe.

Griffin & Howe

Mr. Beach: Very gracious of you to provide all that information, thank you kindly! I'd seen the reference to the 17 1/2 Model in your table but I wasn't equipped to even speculate about it. This gun is, indeed, a featherweight game gun and it handles accordingly. It has been idled out here in the dry and dusty West for over a decade (& I've had my eye on it for at least that long). It now has a date with the deciduous forests of Minnesota & Pennsylvania next Fall.

Beaut of a gun, Lloyd. Nice catch. Gil

Thanks Gil. Not what I'm normally drawn-to, but every time I picked it up I was impressed with the obvious quality and the handling. Always fun to learn something new.