I recently purchased what I hoped would be a nice German drilling, a Carl Stiegele back action hammer gun. As soon as it arrived I noticed that it had a few issues.

1. The top lever is loose, there is hardly any tension on it at all. Push it to the right and it stays there. Push it back to the center and it stays there. The screw holding the trigger assembly to the action is frozen and I stabbed myself pretty badly in the thumb trying to get it off so it will likely be a while before I'm able to get the stock off and assess what is wrong.

My initial thought is that it's maybe a broken or cracked top lever spring? Is the gun still safe to shoot if that's the case, since I can push the lever back to center, or does that need to be fixed first?

2. The left hammer would not hold back and stay cocked. Initially I was afraid that the tumblers might be worn, but on taking out the lock I saw that the sear spring screw was broken. The little bit that screws into the lock plate is still there, but the screw sheared right at the juncture of the screw and the plate, so the sear spring was out of position. My options, best as I can tell, are:

a. Send to a shotgun smith to have a new screw made. I'm assuming this will be very expensive.
b. Try to buy screws from similar shotguns of that era, say L.C. Smith, and see if they work.
c. Try to find screws that small at the hardware store and modify them to fit.

3. In taking the gun apart I found that the tang screw under the trigger guard that holds the top tang to the stock had also sheared. It's actually bent just before the threaded section and the tip is, once again, still in the tang. So I'll need to find a new screw for that too.

For background, this gun came in a lot and this was the primary gun I wanted from the lot. Paid less than $1,000 for the lot, with one of the other guns probably being worth $500-600 at least. The bores are in great shape, stock appears to have quite a bit of oil in the head but no cracks, and the action locks up very tightly, so I definitely want to keep her. But with a new baby and starting to save to buy a house, $500-1000 in repairs just isn't in the cards right now.

Any suggestions?

First, welcome to the site.
Second, welcome to owning a drilling.

Addressing your issues more or less in order:
0. A couple pictures of your gun would have helped. That, and we like to look at guns....
1. Loose top lever. Does the top lever open the action or is your drilling one of those where the top lever is actually the selector between "shotgun" and "rifle"? If the latter, the top lever is not held in place by a spring and it will behave like you describe. If not, then a toplever spring is the first place to look. Yours might, or might not, be a standard size. If it is, you're in luck. If not, some craftsman with a file will have to take a standard size and work it to fit your gun.
2. Getting a new screw for your lock made is the textbook solution, if only because a proper job will include proper steel and hardening (if needed). Trying to substitute a screw from a gun contemporary to yours may, or may not, work. Your gun might be made with metric screws - diameter and threading/pitch - so using an American screw is not likely to fit properly. Not a big issue in a stock or something, but in the lockwork it is a big issue. Safety, you know.
3. Tang screws are not as difficult but, again, diameter and threading/pitch are issues. This, particularly in a back-action (or any hammergun) because they'll help govern alignment and thus function of all the other parts.

All that said, since the bores and lockup are good, the rest is fixable. You're going to have to get the oil out of the stock head anyway, so fixing the rest is something to do. Consider acraglassing the stock head once the oil's out.
Hunting season is closed for some months to come so it's not like you have to get the work done tomorrow. If you were asking me for suggestions, I would:

a. sell the other guns for the $500-600 you think they're worth and put that toward the drilling repairs;
b. spend only paper and throw your spare change into a bin, as a forced means of savings. This can easily add up to $500-600 per year;
c. get used to the idea that your gunsmith is going to be a person you see on a more-or-less regular basis, just like the mechanic for your car, so you want to connect with a good one who has a clue about drillings;
d. stick around here for advice from real experts;
e. learn to reload for the rifle (because just about every rifle caliber in a drilling is obscure, expensive or both);
f. remember that there there are no bargains, especially when it comes to drillings. If you paid less than $1k for a lot including a drilling and some other guns worth $500-600, what does that make the drilling worth?

Again, welcome!

Stop buying junk guns and start putting money towards your house fund and college fund for your kid.


_______________________
AAPL earnings tomorrow.

Replacing some of the screws may not be that difficult. If you have means to measure the screw pitch, OD and length you may be able to contact a gunsmith who specializes in repair of older guns and see if he has something on hand or can make one for you. The problem may be that the pitch is not of today's standards and accurately measuring the pitch could be a problem.

As a suggestion, use what you would put in a college fund to buy up all the old guns you can now and use them till your kid is ready for college. Then give them to him to either become a gunsmith or sell and get an education

You actually can have it all... a house, college for the kids, and junk guns.

Yours sounds very fixable, but there are two paths. One involves paying a pro to do your gunsmithing, and the other is fixing it yourself. Stabbing yourself with a screwdriver is not the greatest start, but there is a lot of info in the archives here including techniques for removing frozen screws without butchering either yourself or your gun. On the flip side is the thought that you might enjoy buying and fixing old guns and end up spending thousands on tools. Or you could be one of those bubbas who messes up decent guns by using the wrong techniques and materials.

Either way, you have come to the right place to either find good information or good gunsmiths. But if a guy called Jagermeister offers his opinion, just remember that you are a beginner who actually owns a drilling, and he is one of those internet fakes who doesn't own one lousy double shotgun. And that is much sadder than poking a hole in your thumb.

Take your time. Learn all you can. Check out the gunsmithing sub forum to help you decide how best to proceed. If you fix your own gun and someone can tell it was repaired... then you didn't do a good job.

I don't know much about drillings, but it might be a good idea to have someone who actually has experience look very closely at your barrels. Something broke those screws, and I'll bet it was way too much gunpowder.

Welcome Dave Webers wonderful forum. Don't listen to Dzadu Keith he is bitter nasty guy. Let me walk you through nice benchmark Suhl Drilling. This is well regarded DDR Fortuna though JP Sauer 3000, 3500, Merkel 90K and 95K are also good choices when looking for affordable drillings. Sample gun is Guns International 100977819. It's in real nice original shape with very good caliber rifle barrel and usable 4x scope proly with #4 Euro reticle. Nice gun. What are the are it's shortcomings? Sharp metal points of scalloped frame and tang making inletting more challenging as well as making wood more prone to hairline splitting. More modern drillings do not have sharp points and come with mounts accepting modern scopes from Zeiss, Kahles, Swarovski, Nickel AG, Schmidt and Bender. Ooops, Dziadu I smell shit. I think your septic is leaking or needs pumping.

Thank you!

Here's a quick picture of the drilling. I just put everything back together quickly but left the screws out.



Sorry for the poor clarity, the lens on my phone is cracked and I'm waiting on a replacement to get here.

1. The lever opens the action. The selector is on the tang, as in this photo.



I'm still trying to get that screw off the bottom of the action, but when I push the lever to the right I can see what I think may be the top lever spring underneath the lever, and it doesn't appear to move at all with the lever.

2. I was thinking of going the hardware store route just to see if the threads were inch, as I know Mausers are and I was hoping that a gun this old might have been made on British tooling. That way I at least know what thread pitch I would need a gunsmith to make and I'm only out a few bucks starting out. The sear spring screw will be difficult to figure out because I only have about three threads on the broken-off part, but it's such a small screw that there's only one or two sizes they even make that small. The tang screw might be a little easier.

I'm a little hesitant to get the oil out of the stock because the last time I did that on a Husqvarna hammer gun it exposed (or maybe caused due to drying out) a whole web of cracks in the head.

a. I was definitely planning on selling two of the other guns, they're of no interest to me.
c. Finding a gunsmith will be difficult, as they basically don't exist in the DC area. I fully expect to have to ship this thing out if it needs to be worked on.
e. I already load for 30 other calibers plus some shotshell, so I'm looking forward to reloading for this one. Looks like probably 9.3x72R or possibly 9.3x70R, have to take a chamber cast to make sure.

pomofo,
Dave in Maine's thought about the top lever possibly being the barrel selector is something to check out. If it is, one of your problems goes away. Photos would likely have made it possible for us to know the answer. Also photos of the markings, including the proof marks( under the barrels) would give a lot of other information. If you can't work on guns yourself, you need to befriend an old gunsmith. I don't mean a gunsmith that works mostly on "black guns and long range rifles", but one that repairs old guns and possibly has old guns set aside for parts, from which he may be able find the screws you need. An alternative is a gunsmith that can ID and make the needed screws. The first step is to post photos, which will allow a better definition of the problems. In the meantime, if any of the parts /screws are broken, save the pieces. To check if the top lever is the selector, move it and watch the rear sight and/or right hand hammer( if a hammer gun). If the rear sight raises or lowers, or if a block moves beside the hammer, then it is the selector. Also, if it is the selector, there would be another way to open the gun; under lever, side lever, or one under the forearm that swings to the side.
Mike
pomofo,
It looks like we were writing at the same time, I can see the top lever is not the selector. I am of the opinion that the "Hardware store" route will do no good(Mauser screws are inch, but a hardware store won't have any 1/4"-22 screws either). If you can't find a local gunsmith, I'm sure there are some in Va. Another idea would be a "Home shop machinist or model maker as they are generally familiar with small and metric screws. New England Custom Guns and gunsmiths that advertise in the Trade Directory of WAIDMANNSHEIL( one of the publications of the German Gun Collectors Assn.) can likely help you.
Mike

What makes you think I am a bitter nasty guy Jagermeister? You seem to really have a problem with the truth. You don't have any actual experience with the drillings you suggested, and you still don't own even one cheap double. You are heavily invested in providing useless information that no one needs or wants. This thread wasn't a request for which drilling he should buy. It was questions about how he should proceed with a gun he actually bought that needs several repairs.

Did you hear that? He actually bought it. He didn't merely put it on Layaway and then back out of the deal after lying to us and telling us all about his new gun. Do you remember telling us how effective the recoil pad was on the short barreled model 870 pump that you never actually took possession of? In the past, you could pretend to be a double gun expert. Thanks to me, people will see you as a pathetic tire-kicking gun shop drooler who also thinks it is intelligent to vote for the same politicians who work to take away our gun rights

So you think you smell shit??? I'm not at all surprised, because you are so full of it your eyes are brown. Have a nice day loser.

P.S. - I Googled "dziado" and it appears that is a somewhat derogatory Pollak term for Old Man. That's funny because according to the date you told us that you registered for Selective Service, and also told us that you would have refused any call to be drafted... you must be at least 15 years older than me. Nice move Mr. Bowels!

GENTLEMEN
A first time poster and y'all do this?
SHAME, SHAME
Mike

If we end up having the 12 kids my wife wants then college is definitely out of the question unless they can get scholarships. Guess I'll have to just buy more guns!

I assumed the top lever on pomofo's gun must be for opening the breech since he has obviously opened it and the lock-up is apparently tight if he holds it to the left. If that is indeed the case, it probably wouldn't hurt anything to fire it, but I'd advise replacing the weak or broken top-lever spring ASAP because if it isn't held closed, the locking surfaces will get hammered. I only own one drilling, a C.K. Ansorg pre-war 16x16x8m/m. The barrel selector that also raises the rear sight is on the top tang, and the safety is on the grip.

Excuse me, but you seem to tolerate repeated lies, unadulterated B.S., unabashed support for anti-gun politicians, and anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric among other things that have absolutely no place here . I find that extremely shameful, but different strokes for different folks I guess. Maybe you agree with King Brown and Last Dollar that we should embrace the very people who are stabbing us in the back. The new guy will soon see for himself that Jagermeister is an empty suit who doesn't own any doubles, and supports firearms restrictions on law abiding citizens while making excuses for Muslim terrorists who use trucks and bombs to kill and main.

Support for our gun rights is a bit more than an NRA decal or lapel pin. Thanks for your thoughts.

We should be hearing from King Brown any minute, as he is reading this thread right now. The new guy will love to see a bunch of his anti-2nd Amendment quotes... and I'll be happy to provide them.

Yeah, I noticed your derogatory words in two posts to insult persons of Polish origin.

Have a cannoli paczki (the Italian bakery has them) and a pot of coffee going. This could be good!

Twelve kids! Mama Mia!


_____________________
Yay Poland!

Paczki and green coffee gut. While your original comment was kind of direct I agree with you. In our country getting something like this fixed will be awful expensive and those able to do it right are few and far between. I mean the only craftsmen left that can modify something w/o just replacing parts are the plumbers.

pomofo unfortunately you get the good side of this board with the initial advice from Dave and Keith and others, while then seeing the result of long insults and bad blood.

Sad Jager and Keith could not help it.

Jager you don't like it when Keith attacks you, your garbage is no different and input on this thread of no value.

Reference the drilling, it maybe worth repairing, but go slow and attack in the steps already advised.

Guns can become money pits and I never would go invest in one that will put me upside down in it without forethought that it is worth it to me to lose the money.

I would send the drilling to a qualified gunsmith for an estimate and evaluation then move once you have better knowledge.

Michael, it's not offensive to draw attention to serial rudeness. Your post seems to encourage it. Our host says keep it clean.

You are mistaken King, or maybe I was poor in how I posted.

The J and K I was referring to Jagerm.. and Keith

I will fix my poorly made post

I thought there may have been an error, Michael. No damage.

Interesting that a googled "urban dictionary" definition of the derogatory word said its use was common in western Pennsylvania, of all places. Pulaski, perhaps!

I'll try to get things apart and see what I can fix myself. I have plenty of tooling from building ARs and AKs and working on my Mausers. If I need to reshape a top lever spring I have a mill and plenty of files. The screws I might even be able to do by buying blank pins and threading the ends with the proper die. I just don't want to get into a situation where I'm spending hundreds of dollars on a gunsmith who does things to absolute perfection when in reality I just need a couple of small parts to keep this thing running for the amount of shooting I'll do with it in the next 30-40 years.

Thanks for pointing out the gunsmithing subforum, I see a lot of discussion of top lever springs so I'll be sure to read them all.

Pomofo,

You said this was sold as part of a lot. I'm assuming this was an auction? Sold as-is? Was the gun misrepresented in any way? It may perhaps be easier to return it if it wasn't sold under the as-is precedence. Unless you were looking for a fun project, this could end up being more money than it is worth in the long run. I've certainly had my share of money-pit projects and still have some sitting around probably...but if its possible to return the gun, it may behoove you to send it back and continue the search? Just a thought...as I said, I've been in your shoes many times. I guess it's all part of the learning experience...

pomofo,
Now is not the time to get really concerned about the cost of repair.
It may not take as much as it looks like now. You can take it one part at a time, from maybe different sources. I have a tipup German rifle that had one leg of the top lever spring broken. As a "make do" fix, I just jammed a leaf from another broken spring into the "V". That was 25 years ago and I have used it since, even killing deer with it. Your problem might not be that simple, but it might. This is sort of a standard spring anyway and I think Dixie Gun Works may some in stock( 2or3 types). The photo showed the right hammer missing, if you don't have it, that may be a problem to "match", but one that "works" can likely be found. The oil soaked wood can be a problem. I suggest you check closely for loose coming ribs and cracks in the action, these can be insurmountable problems, if they exist. If you don't insist on a re-finish to "factory new", you will save a lot of money. From the photos, you might have a pretty unusual type of drilling. It has exterior hammers but the selector is not common for hammer drillings. This leads to the possibility that the rifle fires from a separate hammer on the trigger plate. I suggest you join the German Gun Collectors Assn. and buy reprints of a series of articles by John Laborde, discussing different drilling types. I think I would be pretty excited to have it. Try to make clear photos of all the markings, even if you have to have help.
Mike

This is the lot I won: Auction

Assuming I could get $200-250 total for the cheap SxS and Flobert, that would have meant a really good price for the drilling and Tell rifle together. I figured even if the drilling had problems like being really loose that I could get $500 if I had to sell it. But I think it's worth keeping. And the Tell rifle is nice too. Aside from some small rust freckles here and there on the barrel, it's kept most of its blue. It too was incorrectly described, as it appears to be a 9.3x57R/360 rather than 8.15x46R. Having to send anything back would be pretty time-consuming, better to sell things off and recoup my money if need be.

I think you did quite well with fun guns to spend some quality
time with.
SWEET
Mike

It's a pretty ingenious system, took me several minutes to figure out how it worked. The little button on the selector has to be depressed, only then can the selector switch between shotgun and rifle. Here's a picture of the locks, you can see that the right hammer has a little nub below the face of the hammer.



When the rifle barrel is selected, it pushes out this little square block ahead of the rifle firing pin face.



Pulling the trigger releases the hammer, and the lower nub hits the square piece which hits the face of the firing pin, which can then strike the primer. That block also keeps the main hammer face from striking the right shotgun barrel firing pin. Switch back to shotgun and the block is withdrawn into the action so that the firing pin can strike the shotgun firing pin and not the rifle.

It's a pretty neat little gun, lots of patina and dried grease but no real rust or pitting. All the proof marks I could find are here.







Both shotgun barrels have nitro proofs but there's none that I can see on the rifle barrel. It looks like the 8.7mm marking is stamped on top of an old marking that was polished away. The eagle doesn't look to be either the Reichsadler or the Bundesadler, so I'm assuming these proofs date from the Weimar era, although I wouldn't be surprised if the gun is actually older.

Yeah, I'm planning to sell the Belgian 12 gauge because it has laminated steel barrels and I have enough 12 gauge doubles to work on already. I was thinking of getting rid of the Flobert too, but now that I find that Dixie makes 32 rimfire adapters I might try to see if that works. It might make a good first rifle for my son once he's old enough, too. And I can't wait to take a closer look at the Tell rifle.

I have always been interested in those Tell rifles. Well done! If it is in good shape, that alone almost makes the deal worth it. I've always wanted one for a walkabout Kipplaufbuechse - but the stars have yet to align. I didn't realize that was in the mix...I absolutely support your choice. I hope you'll post more about it in the rifle section as I would be very interested.

pomofo,
OK the photos show it is not one with rifle hammer on triggerplate. it is still an interesting drilling however. Is there a crown R on the rifle barrel? If so, it could have been rebored and new number added( bore, not groove or bullet diameter). My impression is that if an old number was polished off, it may have been bore diameter expressed in gauge. It looks like a drilling proofed during the transition to the improvements to the 1891 proof law, in 1911-12. This is largely because it has bore diameter in mm, but no case length. We see this pretty often during the transition period. I would date it to 1911-12. The right hand tumbler has a small pin that the left one doesn't have, there is likely a small "fly" on the right side that prevents the half cock notch from stopping the hammer when it is fired by the set trigger ( ie trigger not held back). It is interesting that the Tell rifle is chambered for 9.3x57R/360. This is the metric designation for the British 360 2 1/4" cartridge. I have been looking for a rifle in this caliber. I you need to sell it to help pay for the drilling, I'm interested and would give Dave his normal "cut".
Mike

Existing proof law as I understand used the same criteria for proofing smokeless as Black, IE a given % of overload was required. This resulted i unnecessarily high pressures for smokeless. Many of those which were Nitro Proofed specified a very light load of smokeless. I do have an 8x58/16/16 drilling proofed in 1907 which has all 3 barrels With the N mark.

Early 9.3x72R guns were black powder proofed only, The load was increased at a later date & they were then smokeless proofed. I have a hammer drilling in 9.3x72R/16 by Miller & Val Greiss which was proofed in 1913. All three of these barrels were also Nitro proofed. Supposedly the rims of the smokeless cartridges were thicker so they would not chamber in the black powder proofed guns. I cannot confirm this as I only have a few smokeless cases.

There's no crown R on the rifle barrel. Just the eagle, crown U, 8.7mm, and that partially erased mark to the right of the eagle. Looks like the left half of a G or O or C, or maybe the stamp slipped.

Both the rifle barrel and the action have two different serial numbers stamped, one that I would call an "older" more stylized serif-type font, and the other a "newer" cleaner font. There are remnants of proof marks under the ribs that join the rifle barrel to the shotgun barrel, leading me to believe that maybe the shotgun barrels were proofed before assembly, then maybe reproofed after assembly?

There are no crown N marks anywhere, just the eagle next to Nitro on the exterior of the shotgun barrels near the breech. There's also "Fluss-Stahl Krupp-Essen" going around the breech end of the shotgun barrels, partially covered by the rear claw mount base, so "Fluss-Stahl Krupp-Essen" is restamped on the outside of each of the shotgun barrels in a different font. Very peculiar.

Thanks for pointing out that pin on the tumbler, I hadn't noticed that before.

The Tell rifle is marked 108,49 on the outside of the action, and on top of the chamber is inscribed "Tell V. 360/57" which leads me to believe that it's 9.3x57R/360. I can only fit a .302" pin gage into the muzzle end, though, which is odd. The lands are very high, however, so I'll have to try to take a closer look and try to measure across the grooves.

Yes King, I fully intended to insult your friend Jagermeister, because I don't care much for trolls and liars. You seem to find fault with that attitude. I suppose that's because it hits so close to home. I also notice that you were totally silent when your pal Last Dollar called James M. a wop. Would you believe me if I made the same lame excuse he did and claimed that I thought it was a term of endearment? The whole context of his reaction to Jim's reference to the extreme anti-gunner George Soros... sounded quite endearing. Of course we know that you consider Soros a distinguished American Jew:



Here's some derogatory words you posted that are highly insulting to those of us who actually cherish our Constitutional rights to Keep and Bear Arms. pomofo should know that not everyone on this site is what they pretend to be. Here is a small sample of your anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric King... your legacy here. These are your own unedited words, so I'm certain you must be proud of them:




Remember that one King? I get a kick out of it when avowed Atheist's like you invoke the name of Jesus to make a dishonest point.

Here's the one where you used the same words used by Anti-Gun Organizations and attempt to portray gang-bangers as children, and to justify voting for the Liberal Left politicians who wish to disarm us.



Now these two statements were extremely insulting to all law abiding gun owners. How very crude and insulting of you to even suggest that we accept mass murders.





And everyone should be aware that you obviously refuse to accept the 2008 Heller and McDonald Supreme Court decisions, and that you continue to make the totally false claim that the Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a recent invention crafted by our NRA:








Also, you never responded to my answer to your lie about how your off topic Boer War History Lesson ended up in the "Hoarder or Collector" thread. And old colonel once again wasn't concerned about his pal King's thread diversion:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...3389#Post503389

By the way, I know that you and old colonel have been diligently working behind the scenes in a vain attempt to silence me. In fact, I know much more than that.

Oh yes King, I also love your reference to the forum rules. Do you recall all of the times that you violated the rules Dave Weber laid down in the "Preserve the Second Amendment Thread: Informational" that was pinned to the top of the Double Gun Topics list until you and your fellow anti-gun troll pal Ed Good kept disrupting it? In fact, the only posts that were totally deleted in that thread were made by you.

And how about another time when you went against Dave's wishes in this thread with your repeated bashing of our new pro-2nd Amendment President Donald Trump. People who want to understand that you are here to undermine our foundations and our freedoms should read this whole long thread, especially your posts. And Jagermeister pretending that he voted for Trump after bashing him for months prior to the election should make anyone realize he can't be trusted either:

Trump 2016 Wahooo! It's a lock.

As I blithely eat my Colonel Chicken, I’m guessing keith does not like King - - - which I glean from posts here.


______________________
Making do with what I got.
https://youtu.be/_564TNMFz8Q

In this case Colonel in Old Colonel refers to members US military rank. I bet Dziadu eats fried chicken with mash potatoes and sliced carrots like a pro. Gee, perhaps we should warn him about Chinese raised chicken being brought into the USA?

He loves me, lonesome. I don't ignore his precious posts, and that's paramount with him. He anticipates my death, he says, to post a final dig in members gone. At 86, he won't have long to wait. The pleasure I give him makes me feel useful, warm and fuzzy all over. The holy book says it's better to give than receive!

pomofo,
I agree with miller about proofing in the early days of nitro powder. Early barrels were proofed before bundling them together, this was the provisional proof. It was done this way, so less work would be lost if the barrels failed. The proof after assembly is the Definitive Proof. Absent the crown R, the barrel wasn't rebored, then. You might be right about a die slipping. The "polished out" mark may be one of the workers marks. There are three common "Gauge" marks used on pre 1911 9.3 rifles; 118,35-108,49- and 99,70. The 108,49 as found on your rifle seems to be the most common and usually equates to a barrel with about .362-.364" groove diameter. If you "slug" the barrel you should be able to measure it( be careful of odd number of grooves).
Mike

108.49 is the Gauge of the rifles Bore. This converts to a diameter of .350" (8.89 mm), sounds right for a 9.3 with deep rifling grooves.