Looking at a gun which needs to be sleeved. Anybody have a current suggestion who to have it sleeved by and what the normal cost is now? I would like to get it sleeved, before shipping it here. I do not know who to use, as the couple contacts I had, have retired and one I think is dead. For all I know they were sending them out to someone else in the trade and acting as a middle man, not that that would matter to me. £3,000 was the last quote I had for a top level job, with two options of £2,000 as a "decent" job and £1,350 as the "economy" version. Is that still the going rate?
There are three guns in the Holt's upcoming sealed bid, I would love to buy, which all really need to be sleeved. I have thought about just using Briley tubes in them and shooting them as is but the extra weight would change them too much I am afraid. I do not like near eight pound small bores. They are not in the stock, action and cut barrels category yet, but very thin walls, black powder proof, with pits and dents, that are in the .016 or under range. To me that says sleeve me or pass. I might try saving one of them if I could get a handle on the sleeving cost.
My favorite listing is that endless money pit we all think would be cool do, but which in real life you hate before you ever get it finished. About the only thing not needing attention are the hammers and maybe side plates. Barrels are a mess, stock a complete mess, off face, trigger guard slightly bent, you can just see the piles of money needed to put it right. That £250-500 gun soon becomes a $3-4,000.00 gun or twice that much and that could buy a very nice gun, without the need for so much of an overhaul. But still it is such a great looking money pit.;)
My suggestion would be to buy a gun that was already sleeved . There’s a lot of great guys at real bargains out there with sleeved Barrels. Buy one on this side of the pond and you will know what your spending and know what your getting.
I think you need to back away from the computer, mix a drink, or, three, and forget about it. In the morning, this will seem like the bad dream it was.
Buy a gun that is in excellent shape, here, if you must (I somehow doubt you need another gun, but, whatever). Take advantage of the universal 3 day return policy offered by reputable dealers. Avoid anything that has been sleeved.
You won’t hate the gun, or, yourself, if you start with a gem to begin with.
I will will put you in touch with a top man in London for sleeving, basic cost is 2500 gbp. New ribs, re-joining, engraving can add additional money. PM in bound.
I have another client heading his way as well.
Don't listen to our resident Debbie Downers, life is too short. Buy the gun or the puppy is my take. Looking at adding a Setter to the crew myself.
Sleeving doesn’t always kill the value. See lot 1556 at Holt’s a 16 bore Beesley SLNE with 26 inch barrels sleeved in 1970 (when the Proof House was still insisting on stamping SLEEVED on the outside of the barrels) estimated at £700 to £900.
Hammer price £5,200 so £6,760 to get it out of the room!
Another recent example Lady Meux’s 28 bore BIW Purdey hammer gun.
I know that exceptions don’t disprove the rule, which is that at auction a sleeved gun will generally cost a fraction of the cost of sleeving and may therefore be a very good bargain.
I have noticed that at least one of the regular contributors to the Game and Gun pictures seems to have every satisfaction with his SLEEVED British boxlock, and his pheasants do not seem any less dead.
I have noticed that at least one of the regular contributors to the Game and Gun pictures seems to have every satisfaction with his SLEEVED British boxlock, and his pheasants do not seem any less dead.
For those of who don't have the money available to buy a gun in excellent shape, a sleeved gun is a chance to own a fairly nice gun for substantially less than a comparable gun that hasn't been sleeved
Johnson's for sure. Barrel Maker for all London Best guns
Blacker's maybe?
Johnson's(barrel browner here) owns the newly revived John Manton and is building new guns as well as specializing in blacking and browning. If they are sleeving too I did not know that.
German gunsmiths regularly sleeved barrels. We sleeved my Meffert drilling, all three barrels, and I have been very satisfied with it (since the 1970s). If you take a worthless gun and make something very useful and highly prized, it is hard to see how the "value" could have been "killed". Mike
I understand to some, a sleeved gun is to be looked at as a lesser valued gun. But most guns being sleeved, are scrap metal without it, or just a part gun. I have a couple sleeved guns and they are well worth what I paid for them. What is the point of having every gun you own so thin that every shot is a roll of the dice? Some complain that the sleeved barrel changes the weight and balance too much, but I would like to point out they are mostly ultra light because they have been honed and filed to rebrown to an inch of their life. If a sleeved gun gains 10 ounces total, it might be replacing 6 -8 ounces lost to gun care over the century of use. I bet a new set of barrels would weigh the same as a sleeved set but at 20-30 time the cost. And since I can shoot heavy guns well, it matters little to me if a gun is 6 pounds 6 ounces or 7 pounds 2 ounces. I'll take the 7/2 with perfect barrels every time.
The guns I am looking at are still technically in proof, but with barrels that are very marginally safe at best. In proof, is not a guarantee of safety., reasonable caution still needs to be used and I do not like shooting a Black Powder Proofed gun, with dents and .016 wall thickness even if it is in proof. The only reason to consider these guns are their rarity. Also they represent uncommon features, or designs which are unusual and almost impossible to find. If I were in the UK, I might be able to find better examples but I am not. So if I want one for my collection then I have to decide if it is reasonable to roll the dice on one of these guns. To that point I am trying to figure out current sleeving cost. With Covid and retiring gunsmiths this might not even an option or a affordable one in any event.
I spent almost a decade looking for a crossover double, for a left handed shooter, using the right eye. A very uncommon thing. If left handed shooters are 5% of the population, how many of them suffered a injury that required them to shoot a crossover stock and had the means and interest to do so? I have found several hundred right shoulder, left eye guns, but only one left shoulder, right eye gun. The one I bought was a humble box lock, in need of a bit of tidying up as they say. Now it is done and I just came across a second one, that is in slightly better condition but at almost ten times the cost. So I am glad I bought the first because or I would most like be buying the second and paying a lot more money. I am still looking for a swept double for a left handed central vision shooter. Again to date all the one I have found are right shoulder, swept stocks. But I will find one someday. I'll buy the project guns, if there is a reasonable pathway to get them completed. Otherwise all I would be doing is buying an expensive tomato stake.
FWIW (not much, I know), my favorite shotgun of the (way too) many I own is a Charles Moore hammer 12 gauge that is sleeved. The sleeving job is so well done that the seam can only be seen ever so slightly under the forend or by comparing the very slight differences in the bluing on the barrel stubs and the rest of the barrels in bright sunlight. Whoever did the job provided a beautifully balanced gun. I'm sure the price was discounted as a result of the barrels' having been sleeved, but I'd buy another sleeved gun of equal workmanship in a heartbeat.
as to sleeving seams, if visible, faint or invisible, it is a function of how much the customer is willing to pay for the work...and the better sleeved guns that i have seen have some identifying markings stamped on the barrels as to who did the sleeving work and some indication of reproofing by some one or some entity...
if no indication of reproofing...be careful...regardless of the visibility of the seams...and by any means, measure the barrel wall thicknesses in front of the chambers...if less than .090...be very careful...
i once had a sleeved churchill 12 ga boxlock in my hands...beautiful gun...beautiful sleeving job...but only .060 in front of each chamber...sent it back with note..."unsafe to shoot"...
doc drew, amazing that you still have that old pirated image from the internet, from maybe 20 years ago...
anyway, it is a good, safe shooting example of an economical sleeving job...old ed reproofed his barrel work utilizing winchester factory proof loads...be it rifle, pistol or shotgun...
as i recall, the gun was an old parker, that had developed pin hole leaks in the twist steel barrels...had old ed sleeve it at minimal cost, with left over lc smith barrel blanks from the marlin effort to resurrect the lc smith guns in the late forties...old ed regulated the new barrels to shoot to point of aim at 30 yards...
sold gun to competitive shooter, who proceeded to win state championship...old ed was happy to hear that, but was not pleased with how the gun looked, as you seem to not be as well...please try to remember, that when dealing with expert mechanics, one usually gets what one is willing to pay for...
and as i recall, this is most likely the forth time you have posted this image over the years...as in beating a long dead horse... perhaps, we could negotiate a retroactive royalty payment, along with future fees for each time you wish to publish it going forward...
Is it possible to specify, or perhaps supply, the steel of the tubes used in sleeving? Tubes made of high quality steel like the Boehler Blitz, will probably result in lighter barrels than the original and stronger too. They will be a female dog (censored original text) to blue though.
Don't listen to our resident Debbie Downers, life is too short. Buy the gun or the puppy is my take. Looking at adding a Setter to the crew myself.
Then the obvious solution is to buy an old crippled Setter, and then spend 2500 GBP or more on Veterinary bills attempting to fix it.
I agree with Mark and Ted. It is very seldom intelligent to put thousands of dollars into attempting to rehabilitate a $250- $300 beater. I like the idea of getting a relative bargain by doing some repairs or refinishing on a gun. But putting a lot of time, money, and effort into a worn out tomato stake is just stupid.
Is it possible to specify, or perhaps supply, the steel of the tubes used in sleeving? Tubes made of high quality steel like the Boehler Blitz, will probably result in lighter barrels than the original and stronger too. They will be a female dog (censored original text) to blue though.
You could order stainless barrels on a Darne when Firearms Center, in Victoria, TX (James Wayne) was importing them. The barrels went to the plater, who plated them with iron, and then they were blued. In 1964, XTC, a high chrome French tool steel, became the standard barrel steel, and the chrome content was high enough it caused problems with bluing.
That was resolved fairly early on, but, the guns with the barrels they had trouble with, turn up, here and there.
while searching for something else, came upon this old thread, regarding sleeving, in which doc drew takes a cheap shot at old ed...sad that this ungentlemanly and slanderous post even exists...
Is it possible to specify, or perhaps supply, the steel of the tubes used in sleeving? Tubes made of high quality steel like the Boehler Blitz, will probably result in lighter barrels than the original and stronger too. They will be a female dog (censored original text) to blue though.
You could order stainless barrels on a Darne when Firearms Center, in Victoria, TX (James Wayne) was importing them. The barrels went to the plater, who plated them with iron, and then they were blued. In 1964, XTC, a high chrome French tool steel, became the standard barrel steel, and the chrome content was high enough it caused problems with bluing.
That was resolved fairly early on, but, the guns with the barrels they had trouble with, turn up, here and there.
Best, Ted
Seems a lot simpler to just take the regular steel barrels and hard chrome the bores. It has worked great for the Italians for decades.
I have no idea why stainless tubes were offered, or, why they went away. But, offered they were. I imagine pitting in the bores wasn’t a thing with stainless, but, don’t know for sure. Bet they are tough as hell.
Hard plating a surface gets you no more impact resistance than the base metal features. I don’t believe hard plating would help in a situation where the barrel steel was softer than steel shot an owner might put through it, for example.
Boehler antinit anticorro is almost stainless in the sense of resistance to oxidation, therefore hard to blue. The advantage of choosing such material is its resistance to internal as well as external rust.
I have seen a couple of Swedish Flodmans with stainless barrels. The way they got round the bluing was to paint them with epoxy paint.
As far as sleeving goes the major advantage of high grade steels is in the weight saving hence the retention of the balance close to that of the original pre sleeved state. There is an interesting chart published by CIP on the minimum wall thickness per steel grade. The highest grades allow thinner therefore lighter walls.
It might even save the resale value if the quality of the steel could be certified and stamped on the tubes. Between original but thin barrels and sleeved with high grade steel the choice seems to be obvious for knowledgeable buyers.
I have no idea why stainless tubes were offered, or, why they went away. But, offered they were. I imagine pitting in the bores wasn’t a thing with stainless, but, don’t know for sure. Bet they are tough as hell.
Hard plating a surface gets you no more impact resistance than the base metal features. I don’t believe hard plating would help in a situation where the barrel steel was softer than steel shot an owner might put through it, for example.
Best, Ted
It was explained to me, by Mike Orlen I believe, that chroming of bores is nothing like chrome plating a car bumper. It can never flake or peel away as can plated parts on automobiles. He explained that it is an entirely different process that actually causes the hard chrome to bond with the base metal almost like an alloy, that can never be separated. We were discussing cutting longer forcing cones in chrome lined barrels and I had expressed my concerns that lengthening forcing cones in such barrels would lead to failure of the chroming. He assured me that could not happen, and that he regularly does forcing cone and choke work on chrome lined barrels with no resulting issues.
How that process affects impact resistance I have no idea. My understanding over the years has been that the chrome lining of shotgun barrels is for abrasion and corrosion resistance.
Decorative chrome plating as in automotive trim etc.& hard chrome plating are different processes.
In decorative chrome plating the substrate is usually nickel plated (sometime copper & nickel) & then a extremely thin chrome plating on top.
In hard chrome plating the chrome plating is much thicker & applied directly to the substrate which results in a much stronger bond w/the substrate. The thickness of the plating can be controlled to meet the specific application.
Johnson's(barrel browner here) owns the newly revived John Manton and is building new guns as well as specializing in blacking and browning. If they are sleeving too I did not know that.
We do not sleeve ourselves but we do take the work in, you can still get this work done in the UK but several guys who used to do it are no longer doing it so prices are increasing. At present we are blacking, browning and relaying ribs in house, we also cover dents polish bores choke work etc. combining this with the new builds keeps us very busy. in the not too distant future we will be looking to start taking on a few apprentices so maybe we will look sleeving in the future.
I just found out my contact that was sleeving 6 months ago is no longer offering the service though he is inquiring with a friend who may be able to help out. Please keep us informed, I get inquires from time to time and am happy to point them in your direction if you do decide to offer sleeving.
Johnson's for sure. Barrel Maker for all London Best guns
Blacker's maybe?
Johnson's(barrel browner here) owns the newly revived John Manton and is building new guns as well as specializing in blacking and browning. If they are sleeving too I did not know that.
Maybe Ron Johnson of Johnsons barrel browners in London, last I heard they still do sleeving.
Considering the vast experience Italian makers and gunsmiths have with the monobloc process, and that sleeving is similar (but not identical), it might be worth looking that way for sleeving.
Most of the guns my clients are considering having sleeved are located in the UK, moving guns in and out of the EU has become difficult and costly. I do not think any savings are to be had by shipping the guns to Italy for sleeving.
I was thinking of those that are contemplating shipping from the US to the UK for sleeving. It should not cost more to ship to Italy. I have seen work done by some top Italian gunsmiths like Lutterotti and it is impressive. It is also competitively priced.
I think those thinking of shipping guns over seas for sleeving will find the bureaucracy and over head prohibitive. I have no experience shipping guns to Italy but I was the Teague lining representative here in the States for several years and I can tell you that it was painfully expensive to transport the guns. I shipped those guns in batches to try to spread the overhead out and I still could not turn a decent profit doing it.
The protagonist in this bureaucratic nightmare was an English member of the European parliament. Now Britain is out of the EU but the rest of us are saddled with this madness forever.
It is easier and cheaper to travel with the gun, under an EU personal gun permit, than to send the gun by itself, and in the cost I am counting hotel stays and food. I can imagine the cost of transatlantic transport being multiple of what it is inside the EU.
Odd that there are not more American smiths doing sleeving. Especially in view of increasing steel shot use.
There are several people in the US that can do quite good work sleeving. The sticking point is getting tubes. The Italian source most use have raised the quantity of each specified tube. Now instead of getting 1 set of 12's 26" -30" you have to get 50 of each length. That creates a cost of front end loading of an inventory that is really hard for a small shop to justify.
Ed, I am sure I speak for the entire board when I say nobody here wants to hear about your experiences, person or otherwise with KY jelly, lune or what ever you want to call it. What you do with that stuff is your affair but we wish no knowledge of it in any way. Thanks for respecting this. What has been seen can never be fully unseen.
Ed, I did not take offende as much as tire of your childish antics that seem to derail too many threads. Others not interest in wit would like to exchange information. Jon
So, in conclusion , is anyone aware of any company or individuals, that currently offer tier one ( nearly invisible) sleeving services?
I need a rare, but “ barrel challenged” shotgun, made serviceable again.
If anyone has concrete knowledge of proven quality services, regardless of cost, I would greatly appreciate your response. Thank you, Best Regards, JBP
Mr Patton if your gun is Damascus it more difficult to hide the joint .finding tubes is a problem I have been looking a long time I have used take off barrels to make tubes but that presents more challenges good luck I hope you find what you need for your gun
Depending upon what you need, I may be able to help you out Mark. I have a small handful of raw tubes(for dovetail lumps) as well as some joined barrel sets. Steve
![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Repairs-Restoration/i-kGngktK/0/89abe8c6/M/Ed%20Lander%20sleeve-M.jpg)