I was just reading one of the threads about target guns vs. game guns and agree wholeheartedly with the posts. I am contemplating acquiring a 12 bore clays O/U, as I have been shooting most of my game guns on a rotating basis for the last 5-6 years with varying results. I bought a Guerini Revenant 20 ga. 3 years ago to use specifically on clays, as I am not a competition shooter and it is very comfortable to shoot 6-8 boxes through once or twice a week and honestly, seems to shatter birds as well as all my fellow shooters, who all shoot 12 gauges. My question is this; I would like to get a 12 gauge clays O/U that will stand up to the weekly pounding of 200 rounds, but I don't know what gun to buy; there is such a myriad of brands and models that seem to be out there, it is very difficult to know which are the most durable and shootable. Disregarding price( and I know you can go as high as the moon), what makes or models stand out with superior quality, shootability, durability and value to you? Thanks, Sandlapper

My vote would go to Perazzi or Kolar, with both of them being Boss-action guns. They also both have large competition-oriented dealer and service networks in the US.

You already have the Revenant 20.
Look at the Richard Faulds model M. Fixed chokes, ready for FITASC.

My vote is Perazzi. I've owned two MX8s. Still own one. Built like a tank but, somehow, handles beautifully. And the trigger ........ ooooh, the trigger. Perazzi triggers are as good as some good rifle triggers.

Bought mine used. Old one, imported by Winchester. They run forever.

Just shoot your CG 20 with 7/8 oz loads. Lots of guys who handload shoot 7/8 and they break clays just fine. Fortunately it seems 7/8 factory loads are more available now than ever. Rio and Cleaver sell them. If you have to have a 12 CG is fine but I prefer Perazzi with fixed M/IM. Preowned is the way to go

In no particular order: Beretta, Perazzi, Browning/Miroku, CG, Kolar, Krieghoff, Zoli, Blaser. All are proven for durability and "shootability." All have won at the highest level of shooting sports. Superior quality seems synonymous with durability in a target gun, unless you view quality as flashy wood and engraving. Value is subjective: For some a $2000 Miroku represents a good value, for others a $15,000 Perazzi makes economic sense. In my opinion, all of these guns meet your criteria, but they have significant differences in handling. You won't go wrong with another CG or similar Italian maker if that style already works for you.

I've looked at MX8 Perazzis, Zoli Z Specials, but am not familiar with Kolar. I like the detachable triggers and I'm a wood guy. What models of these makes would be a good buy pre-owned?? Thanks for everyone's input. Sandlapper

With that in mind, I'd look for a pre-owned Zoli Z-Sport or the older Zoli Kronos model, which is essentially the same gun. Zoli tends to put more emphasis on grain flow in their stocks than figure and contrast, but you can occasionally find one with upgraded wood. I really like Perazzis, but a used Zoli can be bought for half to a third of the price of a used MX8 in comparable condition (Perazzi comes with a status tax). Rich Cole and Carlson Sporting Arms are good places to contact in your search. Good luck!

You can buy a nice used Citori for under $2000.00. Screw in the Cyl. or Imp. Cyl chokes and along with a nice 1 1/8 oz. load, a KICKEEZ pad and you'll be kickin' those other guys butts in no time. And you'll easily be good for 30-40,000 rounds. Good luck.

For a first dedicated clays gun I always recommend the older Beretta 682 wide body guns. That would be pre-92 guns. I still have a couple of those and they are way durable. They can often be found with factory screw-ins as well and that is a definite plus Even though I have a bunch of Perazzis they come a myriad of configurations and have often been done unto by fadists and you never know what some dolt may have done if you don't know what to look for.
Hoping to find the perfect gun without trying as many as possible and not knowing what constitutes a proper fit for you is a quest guaranteed to be expensive.

Good luck

Dr. WtS

^^^ Well spoken^^^

Wonko, That is what I'm trying to avoid as much as possible by getting as many viewpoints from experienced clays shooters as I can. When I take the jump, I just want a gun that won't give any problems and hopefully, isn't bad to look at on a slow day. I have a pretty good approximation of the stock dimensions I require, so that hopefully is a non-issue. Thanks, Sandlapper

Go to a big NSCA shoot like an open, regional or best of all the Nationals. All major makers will have demo guns you can shoot. You can rule out some guns pretty quickly.

In the FWIW column, my SKB 90 TSS is serving me very well at the moment. Admittedly, my south-paw handicap is what drove me to it's purchase, but I've had no-regrets since. They also make right-handed guns and the price is very competitive (SKB is now made in Turkey). Endlessly adjustable, good weight, and darn-good build quality (for a Turk!). Mine was lightly used (and was priced accordingly) so I've got only pennies in it (I do love a bargain!). The big name guns are clearly wonderful, but you'll be paying dearly for the name. Mine's got the 30-inch tubes, but I can see where 32-inch might be alright as well. To be clear...I'm not a competitor, I just want to be a competent shot and this gun has taught me a lot.

Ken, That is a great idea; I need to find the closest one to where I live in Western NC. Thanks, Sandlapper

It is a journey.

Browning or Beretta is the usual starting point. 2000-3500.

Mid Zoli, CG,

Blaser, Perazzi, Krieghoff, Kolar and higher grade Berettas are the end points all about 7-12k depending on used or new these days.

You will develop distinct preferences and because of that you will migrate to the higher grades for the perceived and real feature sets.

You will always regret letting some guns go on this journey.

For target, recommend 32 inches. No porting. Helps with resale.

My Journey. Browning 325, Merkel 203, Kemen. Krieghoff and Kolar w custom stock are where I ended up now. Very content.

Or For way less you can just shoot a semi like a A400.

BEY, Very good advice in your post. I know that eventually I will end up with a high grade clays model, because I'm a wood and engraving guy at heart. A fellow at my club shoots a Perugini & Visini Maestro 12 that is an absolute knockout of a gun and built like a watch, so he's set the bar high already. I currently shoot my Merkel 303 Luxus 12, because it is the only O/U I have that is choked tightly enough (.026/.030) to break the birds consistently on our Fitasc range, but I hate to put so many rounds through it becsuse it is basically a field model and in the 7 lb. weight range. I will have to try some different guns at a regional shoot and see what feels best, and go from there. Anyway, thanks for your post. Regards, Sandlapper

Sandlapper,
As a Merkel owner of 3 in different gauges, I feel confident that your Merkel will stay the course! Their built like vaults!
Karl

Karl, You are right; I close my guns gently and let the toplevers down and I can hardly discern wear on them while my fellow clays shooters can make a bag of bolts out of their Berettas and Blaser in a few years by slamming them closed continually. You can wear out a break action gun by slamming it closed enough times and never fire a shot through it. It amazes me that people pay what they do for these guns and abuse them so. Thanks, Marcus

You're being knocked about unmercifully with that Merkel. The high standing breech accentuates the upward force of recoil against your face and it's way too light for the high round count of SC. Find a more suitable clays gun before you develop a flinch.
JR

Sandlapper, Ernest Marlette is now a Krieghoff dealer/gunsmith in Winston Salem.

Sandlapper,
You need to be looking at Krieghoffs, Perazzis, Kolars, Zolis, Beretta DT11s and CG Invictus. These are the top end. You owe it to yourself to shoot every model you are interested in before buying as they all feel a bit different. You really should look at the K80 Parcours and handle all 3 barrels (32”, 34” and 32”X). The 34” guns are magnificent! Cole Guns in Florida has many of these available to demo. Dupont in FL can also get you a demo K80 for several weeks as will Kolar.

John, You are correct about unnecessary recoil with the Merkel, even though it has .729 bores( not the usual undersized German bores), it still works on you after 3-4 boxes are fired. Marcus

Gentlemen, I have listened to all your well-reasoned input, and read everything on the net I can find about brand preferences of target guns, and have narrowed it down to a Guerini Invictus IX M-Spec 34" model. From what I can see, rightly or wrongly, it combines the mechanics of a high round count clays model with the wood quality and decoration that I want. It seems to be more than a dolled up model built on the same chassis as a lower grade model. Guerini seems to have realized that, in order to be competitive with Kolar, Perazzi, P&V, etc., they had to have a totally new design that can withstand the truckloads of rounds that serious shooters put through these guns. If my logic is faulty, give me your reasons, please. Thanks, Sandlapper

The Invictus IX is quite literally a dolled up model built on the same chassis as a lower grade model, as you put it. It is the same action as an Invictus I, which is $12k cheaper.

I certainly like the Invictus M
I suggested it, because he already had a 20 gauge Revenant.

The Invictus line is made for high volume use.
Whatever value a person places on adornment and wood, is always subjective.

I like mechanical triggers. Hard to go back to inertia for a target gun.

Kolar, Krieghoff and Blaser triggers are exceptional.

I also think modularity is important because, lets face it, you will most likely change your mind a bit and having the option to swap, sell is a good feature.

All three give you that.

Weight system is nice to have to fine tune balance.

Adj Comb is nice to have as well.

The Invictus line/models are different actions from their other basic lines. The Invictus IX is a dolled up version for sure, but the whole Invictus line is different from their non-Invictus Summits, Ascents, Challenger versions. Stronger frame, different trigger, etc.
https://gueriniusa.com/catalog/#caesar-guerini-catalog/page44-page45
JR

I’ve shot a CG competitively for over 10 years with good results.FYI CG requires their guns be repaired by their smiths. So be prepared to ship your gun to them if repairs are required. They do not supply parts to outside parties.

I've asked quite a few people at my clays club about their gun choices, and Perazzi seems to be the most popular answer I hear, with the superior handling being noted most often.On the flip side, I'm always hearing about Perazzi's propensity towards sideribs coming loose and the guns having to be worked on all the time, and I wonder why they don't correct these problems. as they seem to be longstanding. Would some of the P- gun shooters on this forum tell me their experiences with these issues? It seems every brand has its deficiencies. Thanks, Sandlapper

Your shotgun should be like your dancing partner, try for smooth....pretty helps too!

I would need a much more detailed explanation of the Invictus hinge system than is provided by the catalog. Can anyone simplify it for us? In my opinion, the standard trunnion system is preferable to any system with a bunch more parts.

from what i have seen an heard, only one sxs really qualifies here...

12 gauge browning bss with 30" tubes...

everything else seems to break down long before the bss...

https://www.shop.colegun.com/collec...ew-make-model-gauge-barrel-length-sn-112

I watched Bobby Fowler shoot one of these on the FITASC course at the last NSCA nationals. He shot it well.

[img]https://www.shotgunworld.com/attachments/1689348066741-png.85876/[/img]

It has a pair of replaceable hinge trunnions mounted to the barrel monoblock instead of in the frame. There is a recoil lug under the barrels which bears against a replaceable draw mounted in the bottom of the frame. Their claim to fame is that these replaceable parts allow it to be rejointed many times over by swapping in oversize elements.

Similar or identical to the trunnion system on a Beretta. After 45 years of hard use, my Beretta trunnions have not needed to be replaced. I just don't like the extraneous parts in the Invectus system.

I have worn out one trigger set on my MX8, and had the top rib relaid. Bought a new trigger set from Don Rackley. Giacomo relaid the rib. Keep in mind this is a Winchester imported Perazzi, so there's no telling how much it could have been shot before it came my way.

I've shot most of the major players (brands) at NSCA competition, and even with those two issues I had to sort out with the MX8, I'd rather have it than any other comp O/U I've ever used. However, if I had to leave Perazzi I'd probably go to a Blaser.

Yeah, I dunno how useful the replaceable bits really are. I don't think they necessarily hurt anything by being in there, but I also think it's more of a marketing stunt than anything. A Boss-action gun, when kept properly clean and lubricated, shouldn't need a rejoint unless you get to some ridiculous round counts.

Thanks for the heads up on the M-Spec (Faulds) model. I was not even aware of it until you mentioned it and have located two of the Invictus IX M-Specs in the US. They are the only two made so far in this grade and the dealer said he ordered them 2 yrs. ago. Regards, Sandlapper

Much off topic, but I remember reading (in an old copy of Picture Post?) that between the Wars pistons and engine blocks for London Buses were graded in 4 piston/bore sizes.

The newest blocks had the smallest bores and were fitted with the oldest pistons.

The newest and largest pistons went into the oldest blocks which by then had the largest bores.

I haven't owned or shot a Perazzi since I sold my Heidimarie Hiptmeyer engraved Mirage a couple of decades ago. I think I got about $3500 for it. Today, it would probably bring $12000 to $15000. I would like to know where it is today. I shot it for quite a while before I realized it was a left handed gun. The cast on made it very difficult to lift my head.

Heidi Hipmeyer was an incredibly talented Engraver who trained in Belgium and did most of her work in Quebec. I am fortunate to have a Ruger Red Label that she engraved and her husband Klaus did the stockwork.

I am going to shoot one Saturday. CG is having a tent deal at Bald Mountain.

I’ll run a round of FITASC and see how it points.

When shooting FITASC I follow Ben Hustwaite’s example. That is, use a bayonet mount on the nose of the target and then most of the time just do a small pull or push away.

A gun that is lively and points crisply is a benefit in that shooting style. You need that acceleration to the nose of the bird.

Faulds is a very minimal gun movement competitor. He makes everything look smooth and graceful. so it will be interesting to see if his design works well when using the bayonet style mount.

If you want a pro level clays gun and got the cash look at Silver Seitz

Calgary Bill, Klaus stocked my Perazzi also. Where is it today? It is pictured in an early Gun Digest in the "Engraving" section.

Uh, no.
JR

Had been thinking about a 20 ga, 32 inch, with an adjustable comb as a clays/dove gun. Went with a C. Guerini. Jaquas treated me well. Wanted double triggers. And auto safety is my preference. Jaquas handled all the shipping, etc. Am sure a 12 ga Guerini would do you well.

That should be a sweet gun, Tim. Thirty-two inch barreled 20 ga. O/Us can be magical. As I have said before Guerini and Zoli stock their guns too high for me, off the shelf. But, Beretta doesn't, for some reason. Anyway, if I could make it shoot flat it sounds like it would be an awesome dove gun. My 20 ga. dove O/U has 30" barrels, not 32s, but I'd love to have one.

So, are you saying that Jaqua's had the gun set up and repaired the way you wanted it? They have (or know) a gunsmith who can do that type of thing? What all did they do? Just asking because I would like to have someone close by who I can drop off my guns to and have repaired if I need some work done. Thanks.

I had a chance to shoot the CG Invictus M-class today. 34” varietal.
I brought along a Miroku MK60 20 bore with 30” tubes for comparison.

I’m really only interested in how they move vis a vis each other.

Technically, I found the CG bolting system interesting. Though it’s probably not worth much to me because my volume isn’t there.
However, being able to adjust forend iron /knuckle tension is fantastic. A brilliant development. Loved that.

It is a very stable fixed choke 12 ga target gun. A very smooth pointing package.

Shooting similar targets with each gun, the Miroku 20 is quicker for certain.

For precision pointing I think over a 200 target afternoon, the CG might come out a few ahead.

But it’s a target gun, so it should.

They had many 34” in stock, but no 32’s.

I ordered a 32” in black with adjustable Comb.
Delivery sometime 1st quarter ‘24.

Well, I went to Target Shotguns in Hendersonville, NC yesterday, and had a long talk with Steve and Matt there about the pros and cons of each top brand of target shotgun. After looking at their extensive inventory, I found a Kolar that fit me wonderfully right out of the gate. After looking at the way Kolar guns are built, I bought one of their Max-Lite 32" guns with upgraded wood and high gloss blue finish. They call it their ' midnight special'. Strangely, the gun weighs 8lbs.15 ozs., but doesn't feel as heavy as the Invictus 34" they had at 8lbs.6ozs. Must be the heavier receiver on the Kolar. Anyway, thanks to all for their input on this topic. It has been very informative. Regards, Sandlapper

As a fellow Kolar owner I can say you chose well. Built like a tank, handles like a Corvette. Great trigger as well.
JR

Great to hear, Sandlapper. I am confident you will be well pleased with the Max Lite Sporting. Holler if you want to meet up at some point in the near future.

BC

Jimmy W.

Jaquas found the gun I wanted at another dealer. Had it shipped to them. Then sent it to Guerini as I wanted a different forend, double triggers, and auto safety. Whole process only took about 2 weeks. And they treated me fairly on price. Good folks.

I saw a double trigger, straight grip model Friday at Bald mt.
Beautifully done.

I'll be glad when the company realizes it doesn't, and never did, need the "Caesar" in their brand name. Just call them "Guerini", the same way Beretta, Browning, Perazzi, Zoli, Blaser, Rizzini, Krieghoff, Kolar, and every other maker does. It's a made-up name to begin with. Never was anyone by the name of Caesar Guerini.
JR

Great gun. I love mine. Enjoy.

I used an entry-level Guerini for Skeet at a demo day this afternoon, which made me curious to know what this hive mind thought of the marque. And I searched the forum, found this thread, and this post:




How I imagine them, anyway. That's a shop I'd like to visit, one day.

"this hive mind"....I love it! Fudd, I may need to borrow that one.

Tim, what was the charge for the double trigger conversion?

Eightbore

Double triggers list at $495. With the forend and auto safety the custom work was close to $1000 list. As indicated, Jaquas treated me well on the total price of the gun, but price was not broken down for individual items on the custom work.

Thanks for the information.