Having spent a log time now testing guns of all ages from 1862 through to WW2 it struck me on Saturday as I shot my way through 92 woodpigeons (with a John Manton hammer (8lb) gun and a Westley Richards 'drop-lock' (6lb 12oz) that were feeding on some cut wheat fields, how quickly one feels whether a gun is a 'shooter' or not.

I'm not talking about fit here: it is a given that if the gun is a very poor fit, you will struggle to shoot well with it and will therefore not rate it very highly.

The factor that immediately sprung to mind was weight. A preperly balanced gun feels lighter than it is but a properly weighted gun absorbs recoil and steadies the shot, making each one more repeatable and rhythmic.

To put it bluntly, I have developed a dislike for lightweight guns. They tend to kick too much, even when loaded with 1oz (12-bore), they are less steady to shoot and less pleasant.

I have developed a preferance for a 12-bore that weights around 7lb; certainly no less than 6lb 10oz. as for the real lightweights - the 5lb 8oz and 6lb 12-bores - in my experience bloody awful to shoot for an extended period.

Don't mistake the issue of weight as meaning that I like big, agricultural chunks now - the gun has to be very well made and balanced, not just heavy. Plenty of heavy guns are not very nice to shoot because they have no 'life' in them.

What think you?

Dig,
I tend to agree with you. But go maybe a little further in suggesting that the gun weight be a match to the loads being shot. The 96:1 formula may work for many for a 1200fps load, but too often here in the states we have game loads that are 1300fps or even higher. Also, I've found I like a no lighter than 6lb even gun for standard 1200fps 7/8 oz 20ga loads.

For some of the 12g loads common for pheasant at around 1 1/4 oz traveling anywhere from 1200 up to 1400 fps, I want a heavy gun, maybe 7 1/2 lbs. But realistically, I don't shoot that heavy of a load that often. Sometimes, I find myself shooting a 20g with 1 oz at 1300 fps on pheasant out of either a 6 1/2lb gas gun or my 6 1/4lb Superposed.

On the other hand, sometimes I shoot a 6 1/2lb vintage damascus 12g Parker with 1 oz going 1150 fps on quail and pheasant and it is a very gratifying gun to shoot.

So, in general, I'm in agreement with you. The lightweight gun chase has limits.

I'm with you Dig. To a point.

On those hunts where you walk a dozen miles for three shots, the real merits of a lightweight gun slowly reveal themselves :-)

Ken

With the limits being what they are, a lite 12 should be no problem at all, but I can see a heavier gun for doves and ducks.
Its best to have both in this case.
The low recoil and pressure shells take the bite out of a light 12.

Matey, are shooting those 28gm 65mm 1400fps crazzzzzy English 'Pure Gold' loads again? You know, guality American loads a lot better, but lets keep that a secret ok?

Actually, this weekend I was usung a mixture:

Hull 65mm Imperial Game Fibre No6 28g
Gamebore 65mm Pure Gold Fibre N0.6 28g
Express 65mm HV 24g No.7 1/2

but your point about experimenting with loads is a good one.

It is hard to find a softer shooting shell than the Express 24g HV - but even that kicked the SH1T out of me in a 5lb 8os springer hammer gun I shot with a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful quality gun but I never want to shoot with it again, spiteful little beastie!

It all depends on what I am hunting, Quail behind my dogs, where i might shoot 3 to 10 times, I want my 5 to 6 pound guns. For ducks, I have a heavy Red Label with 30 inch barrels!

I fail to see the logic in shooting a 24 gram load pushed at 1300 or 1350. It would recoil like a well balanced game load with 32 grams at a slower speed. A very light 12 bore would be quite pleasant to shoot with 24 grams at about 1150 fps. That's the way I load them, but then they are admittedly hard to buy at the store. Even my favorite 6 1/4 pound Sauer ten bore is pleasant to shoot as long as I load it intelligently.

Dig - you are on track. However, the weight, balance, and handling becomes more focused when you add MOI to what you know about the gun. Keep in mind that many of us here in USA reload 7/8 oz (24 grams) of shot at 1050 - 1200 fps (5000 to 7500 psi is typical) for older and lighter weight guns.

I am in complete agreement that a shooter should develop an envelope of gun handling "dimensions" (weight, balance, swing effort unmounted, and swing effort mounted) that are suited to him as an individual.

In my neck of the woods, it's a pocket of shells for a limit, ducks or grouse, so there aren't many shots; a lighter gun is just fine. Also, the best waterfowl weather is cold and foul when heavier clothing soaks up recoil.

Dig, I think the 16ga Gamebore Traditional No. 6 felt 28g is 8122psi.

I don't know why anyone would shoot a light, light gun, though. Six and a half pounds would be the lower limit for me.

There is no logic in shooting lighter(less shot) at higher velocities. When the velocity is raised and cancels out the recoil reduction gained by the lighter shot charge, the logic flies out the window. Better to have more shot @ less velocity, for the same recoil. The MV increase diminishes very quickly but the recoil is already done. Ditto to Dig's starting post. I, too, have no use for ultra lightweight guns.

Depends on the shooting vs. carrying. I agree with Ken, walking 10 miles through tough brush for 3-4 shots at grouse makes my 5-10 Hellis 2" gun a pleasure to have along, easy to one hand when needed. Wouldn't want to use it for much else though.

Then again have been kown to put 20 rounds of slugs through my deer gun from a a bench and not notice. Not particularly sensitive. Maybe I don't get out as much as I should but firing a gun has not become second nature to me, I rarely notice the recoil.

The rule of 96 works pretty well for me, so long as velocities are 1150 to 1200 fps. But most of my factory ammo for field use runs 1300 fps. Some quick retrospective figuring tells me that a rule of 104 to 112 works better with B&Ps - their claims of recoil mitigation, notwithstanding.

I don't worry too much about gun weight - my field guns run between just over 5# 3oz to 6# 15oz. MOI will influence my field performance alot more than will gun weight.

Sam

Don't drink too much of that NC Kool-Aid, Samuel.

Dig, Dig, Dig,
This is the trouble with you young, fit types. At my advanced age and, given my fast-deteriorating muscular and nervous systems, I find that I need a light gun to keep up with whoever's trying to poach my birds. (To say nothing about poaching his!) I have a pair of 20 bores that weigh in at 6# 2oz and a pair of 12s (2 1/2") at 6# 4oz for driven. These work for me. As for heavier ones, I have sold off my heavier sporting clays guns and now use only 20 and 28 bores. Same reason. I can get them moving sufficiently quickly to have a hope of getting ahead of the bird. I may miss a fair number, but at least I hit some. With my old 12 bore Perazzi, it was getting really depressing!

Sam, better watch out for that B&P Guccimo. You know the Italian motto: "if it doesn't kick it doesn't work!" I'm not even going to try to come up with the German motto! Veeery
Leo, all Dig needs for Woodie ambushing is Winnie Model 21 with 30" tubes and couple cases if Winnie 'Light Target' loads.

Masterhunter:
Our late friend Russ would say that if one wishes to go afield with an ugly gun, your solution would be welcome. I think that Dig has more of an elegant taste.
I wonder???/LOL
Best,
John

Me thinks Dig needs to check what Pete Theobald is using. Last time I checked it was an old Browning vertical gun with 28" tubes. Hardly a ltwt. piece. Yoooo Ole' Samichlaus have you tried Rottweil 'Super Game' 3&1/4dr 1&1/4oz loads. Makes one appreciate Thuringian piece with Purdey double bites und Greener bolt with deep carvings.
Mr. Maaann you make me thirsty for cold Samichlaus beer.

Gentlemen,

Ninety-two (92) wood pigeons is no small feat! Nor is it a small amount of shooting, even if the marksman qualifies well above the average bloke. My hat is off to a well constructed hide, great shooting and an opinion arrived at through the blunt force of reality. I would hope that Dig's memory of the day outlasts any discomfort experienced ;-)

Leo also brings to the fore a perspective that can be shared by many, who for one reason or another, are unable to sustain a day's shooting with the heavier guns. Behind dogs or directly overhead from a butt, 'power' is easily displaced by accuracy, assuming adequate shot size for the intended game is in play.

I suspect that adrenaline often offsets the thump ... up to a point. After that its becomes an aggravation, and in a worse case a flinch or even a balk. The truth is that all of us have certain limits, not all the same, but limits nonetheless. We should appreciate the honest findings and feelings expressed on this site and respect those who have arrived at their opinions through experience. Personally, I find guns below six pounds to be a challenge, and it goes beyond just balance and execution. OTOH, following a dog much of the day for a few shots requiring no more than a handful of cartridges would not cause me to wish an overly heavy gun nor one that bites at the hand that carries it. Many sidelocks are simply not comfortable to the hand when carried for any length of time, probably because they were designed to be handed to the shooter from a butt and shot, their intended function being in the shooting, not the chase as the game was frequently driven or decoyed and not found by man's best friend.

Just some idle thots on my part, not meant to be remotely argumentative, thank you. Many valuable opinions here.

BTW, pigeons, while similar to dove are exponentially at least 2 with others closer to 3 .. they take some killing, aside from simply being hit, and in the wild they are quite deceptive as their wing beat does not translate into their actual speed .. disregarding what my brain is telling me about leads and doubling it provides the desired result more often than not.

I just do not shoot light guns well over a prolong period. Like many I can shoot any gun fairly well for a few shot, more than a few if I am thinking about buying it. Ran more than one straight skeet or trap round with a gun that I was thinking about buying.

My personal choice would be a stable of guns that would run from 7 to 8 pounds for a 12 and 5 1/2 to 6 3/4 pounds for a small bore. Barrels can run from 26" to 32". Stock can be plus or minus a great deal in the drop department but I do not like guns too short. Wait I got that, well I must keep looking for the guns between those full ounce weights. You know a set of 1/4 ounce increments must be worth owning and shooting.

Photo posted for Smallbore. Westley Richards droplock and a John Manton hammer gun

[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=516380&c=500&z=1"][/url]

Now, Jon, you have fallen behind current wisdom. Don't you know that gunfit is a single point? You seem to think of it as a range......in a thinly disguised attempt to justify more guns that ought to belong to me. And how can you hit anything with 26" barrels? Aren't they too short for aiming purposes?

Bill, don't forget that CT Huskies re-gift their processed Kool Aid onto NC tires - whether they're parked at Cameron or the Smith Center.

Sam

I think that the current wisdom of having every gun fit to your exact dimensions or only being able to shoot 28, 30 or better yet 32" barrels is a load of crap. Just as 25" barrels was a marketing ploy these modern experts that loathe anything which does not have screw in choke tubes, long barrels, custom made stock, or worse yet an adjustable stock just are trying to create demand where there is none. It is not the gun it is mostly the gunner.

I know that I am getting old but shooting styles need to be as flexible as your guns. Often a sustained lead in not possible. TO me a complete shooter is one who can shoot well by multiple styles of shooting. Swing through, sustained lead, spot shooting in certain situations all have their merits. So to do long or short barrels and stocks with more or less drop than average.

If I am in a layout blind and have to shoot from a sitting or kneeling position I do not want a high combed stock. It smacks the face and hurts like heck. Try shooting 32" barrels out of a blind that has enough cover to stop a small gale or a tight area where you need to stop your swing before you hit a tree or blind frame.

Just as I have not found the universal shell I have failed to find the universal gun. But as I am still looking I still have hope. Besides I built my gun room because safes had a nasty habit of running out of room. Far easier to fill a large safe than a large room. So until the perfect gun comes along the less than perfect guns will have to be used on a trial and error basis until I narrow down the field to just one or two. Might be easier if there was not so much game to shoot and so little time.

Thanks for posting the photos Mike. Those were the latest guns I tested.

I'm not saying lightweight guns are never any good for anything, just that I've noticed that I'm leaning towards a bit more weight than I used to as a result of the last year or two's experience alternating between lots of different gun for testing purposes.

Always useful to reflect on what experience is teaching me.

Interesting discussion. I recently sold my 6.7 lb 16b Lefever in favor of a new 6.3 lb 16b Ugartechea with checkered butt. Why? I wanted a 100% condition lightweight upland gun with a straight stock that I wouldn't worry about too much in the nick and scrape department. I'm finding that it kicks quite a bit more than the Lefever, even with target loads, but for its intended purpose, i.e., shooting half a box of shells at chukars or huns or quail all day up and down steep hills and such, recoil isn't an issue. I definitely feel it at the skeet range however, especially after about the third box.

My next gun will likely be a 12b damascus Lefever with lightweight handloads.

This subject is exactly the excuse I use to buy more guns. I don't like to shoot my light field guns at the range much because they're a bit wippy and recoil is up. However, since I shoot either walked-up birds or over my retriever, a flushing bird is almost always a surprise. Frankly, I like the surprise part of my hunting very much. I don't think I could give it up. It gives me that spurt of adrenaline and I've become a junkie.

Being only an upland hunter, and one that tends to spend the entire day in the grouse woods or pheasant fields I prefer light guns. Like Samuel the rule of 96:1 works for me. My 16 is 6 lbs and my 12 is 6 lbs 7 oz (a bit under the rule of 96 for a 1 1/8 oz charge), but it works for me. I rarely notice recoil, but I sure can understand that if one were shooting driven birds or any type of clays that guns this light would probably take their toll.

I have a couple of Sauers that I used until a few years ago. The 20 was 6 lbs 10 oz and I purchased a flat of what I thought were 2 1/2 dram 1 oz coppers for grouse. Well, I picked up the wrong case and they had a much heavier charge. I shot a few of them at early pheasant and boy did they kick. I gave the entire case to a friend headed to South Dakota and told him to give them to someone he hated.

I'm giving a light gun (6/3# Webley & Scott) its first tryout this weekend on praire grouse in Nebraska. I've been shooting it all summer at the clays range and, for me, can verify that 7/8 oz. @ 1100 fps is much more plesant than Pure Gold 1 oz. @ 1300 fps. However, flushes are a long, long way apart and shooting can be 40-50 yards, I'm willing to put up with the considerable recoil considering a box of shells will last me three days. I'm getting "a little long in the tooth" and have been DRAGGING an 8/0 SKB 585 over those sandhills for years and believe leaving 2# in the truck will be most pleasant! That and the fact English #6's had to be made just for sharptails and chickens! I'll report on my success Tuesday.

Steve

Perhaps you should check your gun fit first. Also, a sitting position for wood pigeons would make the gun recoil into you, perhaps, as opposed to a standing position where your leading arm is pressing the gun forward.

When the game is scarce and you've miles to go, a light weight twelve is the right way to go.
When the daily bag limit is set low, you can get along with a hard recoiling twelve for that short time.
I see no problem with light weights in the field - think about those olden grouse brace count numbers.

Does anyone have the statistics on the Gamebore Traditional shells. I was shooting 16 ga. GB 1 oz. #7, 28g, fibre wad. Reached out there but had more recoil than expected. If it is what King stated at 8122 psi that is fairly low-pressure.

I shoot heavier guns better but like to carry lighter guns more.......I doubt that this is uncommon.

KM,
No secret there. Look at the current clay game guns. Most are 8lbs or there abouts and very forward weighted well beyond what the London gamegun fun-adicts would call a "balanced" gun. Face it, they shoot better, millions of clays and dollars have proven it. Now, I wouldn't like to take a 32" 8lb gun up and down the razorbacks of my favorite quail patch, nor do I think it's ideal for that ever so quick flush of quail. But, I've killed many many quail with a 7 1/2lb BSS 26" 12g that is pretty well balanced between the hands but would not be called "lively" by any means. I think that's it! "lively" is not conducive to consistant shooting by the masses, no matter the claims. I see this very clearly when watching my brother-in-law (a hunter/shooter of only 5-6 yrs) go thru guns. He favors heavier, more forward weighted guns. I've given him a Win 24 20g that is a feather of 6lbs and very "lively". He couldn't hit well with it no matter how we fitted it. He didn't like the quickness of the gun and has moved on to slower swinging guns. He even bought a 32" 101 gun from me for SC. He does well with the slower swinging guns.

If you can't put enough rounds through your light weight (because of discomfort) to become intimately familiar with it......it's too light.

This topic gets posted about every six months, very subjective, what it comes down to is whatever suits your taste and style. Personally, I prefer a light gun, in fact the lighter the better. My current go-to upland gun is a 16 gauge French guild gun with 27" barrels, choked Full/Skeet, it weighs 5 lbs 1 oz. About all I use it for is hunting, though I will shoot a few rounds of sporting clays and 5-stand with it in the late summer, just before hunting season. Yah it kicks hard, so what.
Steve

Steve, yur tuff. I'm not all that concerned over recoil either. I know there are some exceptional shooters like yourself and probably there are many proficient shooters on this board that can handle a light, "lively" gun well. Heck, many on this bbs eat, sleep, and breathe shooting/hunting. They/we are the exception, IMO. But, even they will shoot a "slower" gun better, but not many would want to lug them in the field.

I do prefer fairly light guns for my quail hunting. But I do know that I'm more consistant with a heavier gun. I'm just not all that inclined to carry a big heavy gun for the up and downs of quail hunting. What I like and what I shoot better have some differences.

Now Steve-ain't you about 6'4" and 250?
Us pencil neck geeks with previous sports injuries and head trauma ('splains alot ) are a bit more recoil "sensitive."

revdoc, where do you shoot phez that allows limits like I see in that photo? Or, are those pen raised birds shot on a high $$ funny farm? I am just positive you wouldn't do anything illegal like disregard a game limit, right? Right, must be pen raised birds.

All wild S. Dakota birds, and as you can see from the angle of the sun, took us all day of 'drive and blocking' to get them



Not really my style of hunting, but these are former med students and old hunting buddies from KC and our 4th year together in Plankinton.
Thanks for your interest.

Doc,
I was in SD for the openner on the east side. Very wet and thought waders would be handy. Birds everwhere. Nice take. 'that a little Lab on the left? Looks a bit like mine.

I'm not much for the classic SD 'walk-n-block' cornfield either. This year, I was pleasantly surprised that we only hunted one or two cornfields and most were in grass, reed, weed, or cattail fields/slews. Much more satisfying, even if they were hunted in the walk-n-block fashion. Still, it felt more like real hunting rather than harvesting.

Chuck, some of these London lightweight fun guns have been known to down hundreds and hundreds of gamebirds by noon.
At that they're perfect.
The best gunmaker's best efforts are over-looked by the heavy gun set.
Don't it make you wonder why?

LG,
Those blueskinned land barons rarely see the light of day, let alone get any exercise. They need a featherweight gun just to be able to heft it for an afternoon shoot (no, not hunt) of peasant driven birds.

Also a point to keep in mind is that the best big money live bird shoot pigeon guns are "heavy guns". Don't it make you wonder why? They could have any gun they want. They nearly unnamimously chose a relatively heavy gun....why? All big name clays shooters and all the no-name clay shooters (any game) chose a relatively heavy gun...why?

If a 6 1/2 lb sxs gamegun was THE GUN regardless of the application, wouldn't you expect the big money to be shooting them?

Frankly, all kidding aside, it escapes me as to why a person standing still, shooting, not hunting, would desire a light gun, some with short barrels. Perhaps the lessons of gun evolution were not quite through their sinusoidal excursions?

Chuck: that pic was Nov. 11. I spent two days in Presho hunting a full section of CRP with milo strips-tough hunting for one guy and a scent crazed 2 yo setter dog. About the 3rd trip back to the truck he caught on that 'you ain't hunting with me, then you ain't hunting' Then on to Mitchell for 2 days. All the rain you got still had the ground moist and it got up to 60 with bright sunshine.
The little lab is not yet 2 and already an incredible dog with a wonderful personality. We hunted with her momma 2 yrs ago, and when the litter were ready, two of those guys drove back up for pups. Here's a pic of the lab power from last year



And back to the topic, I'm incapable of shooting a 12g SxS S. Dakota/KS pheasant gun with 1 1/8 oz 5s at 1300 fps with anything lighter than a 7 1/2# gun. And can't tolerate the Fiocchi GP boomers even in a Benelli SBE.

Doc,
We drive right thru Presho when we come up from North Platte then across to Mitchell & up to Huron.

My just 2 yr old Lab is turning into the best western (not motel) upland dog I could have hoped for. She's also a great companion for my wife and I.

Although I use the SD trip for my field trials of guns, taking the opportunity to shoot guns I don't shoot often, I've been grabbing a lightened (no pad, no dynamic recoil reducer weight) 6 1/4 lb Beretta 20g SC Technys Gold gas gun lately. Took most of my phez in SD with it, with some going to my BSS 20g and one to my Hunter Fulton. All shooting with the Rem Nitro Phez, 1300fps/1oz, #5, 2 3/4" load. I never picked up my 12g this yr.

Those who suffer the heavy gun syndrome resort to pigeon guns, and or smallbore novelties when the subject of liteweight gameguns is brought-up.

My quail gun for the past two years has been a 30" Spanish double 12 gauge. I shoot skeet a couple of times a week with a 32" K-80 with full length tubes. I acquired a 28 ga Ugartechea this summer and was looking forward to hunting with it. I shot it well at skeet despite a choking of .009 and .025. I did OK with it one day during dove season. When quail hunting it seemed almost disjointed when I threw it up. After hunting with it for two days I went back to the heavier 12 ga and seemed to do much better. I don't think that it was entirely due to the smaller gauge either. The 12 just seemed to come up a lot smoother and get on target with less effort.

Lowell,
One things for sure, everyone has different tastes. Don't get me wrong, I like a light gun as much as the next guy. As for the smaller bores than 12, I just feel wrong shooting little quail and dove with a 12. But that's just me. It's perfectly alright with me for someone to shoot a 12 or even a 10g at quail and dove. I shot a 12g on dove & quail longer than I've shot the smaller bores. I've just found more pleasure in shooting something smaller. As I said, I could find a place for a light 12 game gun in my safe. In fact, I do have a straight stocked damascus Parker 12 that's 6 1/2lbs. That's pretty close to the classic 12g game gun config. Now just for the record, if I were to ask most serious modern hunters what was a "novelty"; a hundred yr old 12g game gun or a modern 20g gas gun, the answer would be unanimous: the hundred yr old gun.

The amount of modern smallgame/upland hunters are very small these days Chuck. You'd have to ask the waterfowlers - really the only ones week-in and week-out with a shotgun in their hands.
...and your right, they'd pick a auto.
Missouri in the fifties and sixties was the quail state to be in.
Bet not more than a handful of men with quail dogs and quail wands could be found on any given weekend today.
I'd go with the 12b.

Of all the different guns I have used in 50+ yrs of hunting, the gun I felt I shot best in the field (uplands)(My much loved Lefevers included) was a 12ga J P Clabrough, Back action sidelock, 28" bbl'd damascus with a wt of 6lb 14oz. In my thinking this qualifies it neiter as a "Lightweight" or "Heavyweight" but a middle of the roader, good for neither "Fish nor Fowl". The quality I attributed most to this guns shooting was a good personal fit. All my guns have been "Off the Shelf" models, most long off the shelf. I have also shot rather well with guns from 6-7½ without really feeling a big handicap due soley to wt in any of them. The light ones do carry easier though, especially as I age & grow too fat.

LG,
In the southwest, quail hunting is alive and well...well but for the drought here that has kaboshed just about everything this year. I know the quail are very popular in states from Texas, NM, AZ, and Calif. Calif also has a very hearty chukar hunting segment. Most of the quail & chukar hunters probably carry 12g guns just due to it's sheer numbers of production out there. But there are many smaller gauge users for quail & dove. It's not uncommon to run across a guy with a 28g gun in Yuma or Blythe while hunting dove or quail and 20g guns are fairly common. Dove hunting in the lower Colorado river valley is very much alive and well. I think you'd find quail hunting to be very popular in better rainfall years. Quail population is so dependent on rainfall that it tracks with the rainfall.

I wonder if there will be more of the lightweight 20ga guns as hunters become older and fewer younger ones coming along. My 20ga is getting three-quarters of the action now because it's easy to carry and no handicap on birds. To come right down to it, I'm using heavier 12s more out of sentiment than utility.

Post deleted by King Brown

LG what Chuck said.

In the Panhandle of Texas Quail season runs from late October thru late February and you can find me and my hunting buddies out every week chasing quail or pheasant. Last year there was a drought year here and we went to New Mexico, Kansas, and Oklahoma in pursuit of flushing birds.

I hunt on foot behind pointing dogs. I carry a 5-3/4 pound English boxlock extractor 16 gauge. I don't own an ATV. The difference between carrying a 5-3/4 pound gun and a 6-3/4 pound gun is very signifigant - especailly after 3:00PM. I shoot heavy guns at clays and dove - because they recoil less and I shoot them better.

Best,

Mike

Dig et al.,
Seems to me like a half loaded question/issue. For sedintary high or even medium volume shooting a heavy gun is needed. No matter the loads, if you are going to shoot 100 plus shells a day the extra weight is necessary. Not to mention, how it helps with gun swing. However, for carrying a gun all day in the era of low bag limits (especially if in hills or difficult terrain) a light gun is wonderful.
Like Chuck and Rev, I was fortunate to be able to spent some time in So. Dakota this year chasing the wily ringneck. Lots of good strong wild birds and the season was almost a month old. One day I carried a 12 Perazzi and 3 days I carried a 20 Sterlingworth with 26" barrels. I would not even take the Perazzi again. The little 5'13oz. Sterlingworth worked like a magic wand. For some reason I shot it well and with one oz. #5s it just flat WHACKED the birds and at pretty significant distances. And, it was a real pleasure to carry.
Now, I ain't takin' the Sterly out to the range to shoot one or two hundered clays even though I can't wait to get it in the field again.
Different tools for different jobs.
The wood pigeon shoot sounds like a great one.
Regards, Jake

I'm so happy with my sub $300 5&1/2lb 12br 30" that I might nix my Sterlingworth and GM 201e. I simply don't need them anymore.

For targets and high volume shooting, I like my 6 lb.-15 oz. MX20.

But for real hunting I like game guns...

AH Fox 16 -- 5-15
Lindner Daly 20 -- 5-10
Harkom 16 -- 5-8
Dickson 12 -- 6-3

When hunting, I carry a gun far more than I shoot it, and find that 1 oz. or less of shot seldom leaves me wishing I had more.

One point many seem to forget is the British Game gun was designed & built around "High Volume" shooting in comparsion to most any hunting situation encountered in the US. Althoug I have never been there from reading it would seem that many of the shooters in the heyday of the driven shoots, many shot as many rounds as the normal US target shooter, & they did it with their game gun. The weight of those guns decreased over the yrs, they did not become heavier. This also appears to have occured over years in which the amount of shooting was not necessarily declining, so was not because of less shots fired.

Hi Miller:

I read in Burrard or Thomas that the typical British game gun went from a 6&3/4 pound gun with 30 inch barrels shooting a 1-1/8oz load to a 6-1/2 pound gun with 28" barrels shooting a 1-1/16oz load. I don't consider 6-1/2 pounds particularly lightweight, more like medium weight.

Best,

Mike

Going lighter to compensate for lot's of miles helps for me due to a few too many neck injuries from the years. I did find going too light was a problem on the whippy side, having to come back to the bird and the gun bouncing all over. But keeping in the 6 1.2lb. range (give or take a few oz.) seems to work for me. But for the waterfowling, laying about on the Missouri River, I like going up to the 7 1/2 lb. range for the 12 ga. Only having to carry it from the boat to the bank is still possible. At least that's how is feels this year!

I thought, based on the British penny weight concept

A 1 1/8 oz load was intended for a 7lb gun

A 1 1/16oz load was intended for 6lb 7oz gun

A 7/8 oz load was intended for a 5lb 8oz gun

Maybe I have bass ackwards, but I was told that, during the early days of smokeless powder, it was thought that if you shoot a 5 1/2 lb double, 7/8ths oz was the most that should be shot from it...otherwise your subjecting the face of the buttstock to forces that the stockmaker hadn't intended. This obstacle was eventually overcome by many French artisan/gunmakers by utilizing "faux corps de plantines" (which means false body of the sidelocks). What was previously thought of as "false sideplates" were assigned a utilitarian function by French artisans trying to overcome the penny wieght thinking. The sideplates were used to not only encase the head of the boxlock stock, but to add a sizable amount of surface to the area considered to be the face or bearing surfaces of the stock. In the early days of nitro powder, when most makers just moved toward more robust guns, the French sportsmen continued to demand lightweight fast handling doubles. Some of the French doubles of the period are among the lightest ever produced. If your lucky enough to find one thats triple proofed, you've got the zenith of a particular thoroughbred double.

The "penny weight" is new to me but I have heard of taking the shot charge and multiplying it times 96. This would give 6lbs-12oz for 1-1/8oz and 6lbs-6oz for 1-1/16. I think I read it in a GT Garwood book.

Best,

Mike

I think someone brought this up before; modern factory hunting loads have been getting faster and energy levels have come up. A 20g often is shooting a load with the same or more energy as some old 12g loads in guns about the same weight as those older 12g guns. No free lunch.

Amarillomike,
I was told x100.... perhaps Garwood was opting for an additional 4% safety margin.


Over the years, I've tried to acquire the best example of one of these thoroughbreds I could afford to...currently I have a double proofed Rouchoux with a wrist circumference of 4 inches in 16ga...that's less that 1.3 inches in diameter...L' Abielle (Paris) sold some of the best examples but I believe they were actually produced in Belgium

I think that many factors need to be taken into consideration.
English Driven days usually involve the use of vehicles to take you to each drive so for comfort and recoil absorption the heavier gun makes sense.
Pigeon shooting over decoys usually involves transportation and then decamping to set up a hide, so a heavy gun to shoot 90 odd birds makes sense.
Walking 15 miles over a heather and bracken strewn moor to shoot grouse would require carrying a lightweight gun (or using a loader to carry your heavy beastie)if it was all walked up I would prefer a lightweight.
Joe Nickerson went from 12 to 20 to 28 guage as he grew older.
At Dig's age I would suggest he cut out the cigar's and shot a .410
Every gun has its place in your cabinet, it's really a question of horses for courses.
Incidentally I think it was W.W.Greener who suggested 96-1 as the gun to cartridge ratio.

W W Greener gave the 96:1 ratio of gun to shot wt at least as early as his 9th edition (1910). Burrard gave a recommendation based on FPS of recoil velocity, irregardless of gun wt. His recommendation will work out very close to the 96:1 ratio. Note that both of these were recommended for driven bird shooting (high volume) & for loads having a "True MV" (most vel listed my US makers is instrumental, not true MV) of around 1300 FPS.
In the overall scheme of things, personally I would consider any 12ga, except the miniature 2" guns, 6 3/4 lbs or less as falling in the light wt class.