doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com OT but need some patterning advise

Hi All,
I have a friend who is a SWAT team officer and a master class
ASPSA shooter who shoots in 3 gun matches at times. His shotgun is a tactical Rem 11-87 autoloader.
The problem he is having has 2 parts. 1) his patterns are inconsistant between the different loads he needs for the competition and consistant patterns are needed to avoid flyers striking no shoot target that are in close proximity to shoot targets. He needs to shoot Heavy Target loads (to cycle the auto) in 6, 7.5 he also needs to shoot OO buck and slugs all in the same gun and sometimes on the same stage.
2) trying to reduce felt recoil to aquire the targets quicker

He is considering chamber work , back boring, choke alterations (they are screw in chokes and he does have some extended screw ins) to try to reduce fleyes, he has some slug flyers as well as shot flyers and improve shot consistancy for all 3 loads.

Does anyone have any ideas for the man in blue?

Thanks, Jeff G.
PS He did finish strongly in the nationals recently.

1. Choke changes would be the place to go to alter patterns(I'm assuming they do not use reloads)
2. The only way to reduce recoil, true, felt or wished for is to alter one or more of the factors that determine recoil(payload, velocity and gun weight.
Nothing you can do to the inside of the barrel will reduce recoil unless it reduces velocity. You might as well urinate through the tube.

Patterns can change significantly as various choke tubes are tried, even making minor changes (sometimes just a few thousandths). Really good patterns often take a fair amount of experimentation.

There are some basics that will reduce flyer pellets: Reducing deformation of pellets is one big key. That is done by using the hardest shot available, choosing a wad that holds the entire shot charge, using a relatively slower burning powder to accelerate the ejecta relatively more gradually, and keeping velocity low. The latter will greatly reduce felt recoil also. He may even want to consider steel shot if it's permissible. A relatively slower powder also will keep pressure higher at the gas bleed hole, giving some help to cycling the action.

I realize he may not want to reload, which will make things harder. However, the basic elements above will very likely be found in the shell that he finds produces the best controlled patterns. It is very likely it will not be a cheap or promotional load. A good live bird (pigeon) load, 1 1/4 ozs shot over 3 1/4 dram equivalent powder, hard (and often plated) shot would be a good place to start. W-W and Fiocci make these to my certain knowledge, among others around the world.

If he does want to reload, look into Tom Roster's loads developed in search of 100% patterns for waterfowl. Some use shot buffer, which may or may not be ok for the game's rules.

Hi Jim & Fred,

Thanks for help and replies, I will pass it on.

Jeff

I have yet to try this, but suspect that use of the hard plastic wads made for steel shot may reduce the flyer issue at closer ranges. Or even using another wad, perhaps a gauge smaller & reversed as a means of making a 'capsule'. Certainly the shot roundness factor gets into any pattern equation and it is my 'understanding' that Seiller & Bellot (sp?) ammunition uses shot that is rolled for size rather than simply dropped. I do not know that to be a fact, but I have seen it in print at some time and had it said to me on several ocassions. They are a huge manufacturer and they make quality ammunition, tho it is oft a bit 'hot', at least in my experience. The few cartridges that I have cut open had high quality round uniform shot, but my hardness testing is .. let's just say empirical. The steel shot as suggested by Fred [all his comments, for that matter] is a very good idea and inexpensive small size steel shot loads are currently available from W-W.

If everything has to be factory loaded and/or it is within the rules, he may wish to experiment with some of the Federal T-matrix ammunition or the Hevi-Shot now available. Expensive? Yes, but some folks shoot $10~$20/box RF ammo when the chips are down in several dif disciplines of RF shooting. Guess it is a matter of what is it worth to have every last edge built into the equation that is possible.

That's true! There is one person(one's enough) in the world who likes to spend more money for a box of .22 LR ammo than for a scope.

TW thanks for you input I think I have some S&B ammo and will look for it (it was hot). Steel will not work because you are often shooting at steel targets and the bounce back factor would be a problem.

Thanks, Jeff G.

Just a memory: Trying 12ga S@B shells 25-30 years ago, on my first shot at ducks I thought my AYA Matador had doubled! Matador triggers were iffy and I was surprised to see on opening only one dented primer.