doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com American vs. English "frequent shooters"

I've often wondered if it's wise to buy an older English SxS for FREQUENT shooting at upland game, skeet, etc. versus let's say a Fox or Parker and having it restocked if necessary to fit you?

Certainly many english guns can be found with decent dimensions and balance. On the other hand they are often chambered for 2" or 2.5" shells, might be a bit too light and whippy to shoot a lot, and many makers are now out of business.... so the gun can't be easily repaired if and when something breaks (remember my frequent shooting comment). Also, you get into the in proof/out of proof quandry if you decide to do something to the barrels but think you may want to sell it down the road.

If you start out with a quality American double gun, the restocking will cost you some bucks but you'll have a gun you can shoot with regular shells (appropriate loads), and one that can be repaired a lot more easily. Also the restocking can be done so the gun fits you exactly and you don't have to adapt to fit the gun.

I understand this comes down to personal choice but in balance I'll take the American gun/restocked if necessary if I want to get one to shoot a lot and not worry about breaking an obsolete part. Your thoughts? Silvers

I would suggest that as long as its not for extended target use, the difference doesnt make a hill of beans.

Field guns of any stripe just dont get that much use. For example, Texas has a 15 bird bag limit on quail. Lets say you require 2 shots/bird, and hunt 2 days a week. The season is October 28-Feb 25. You shoot 960 shots a year.

1) All the manufacturers, on either side of the Pond, are basically defunct, with a few minor minor exceptions, so repair is not a matter of factory warranty card service, anyway. A Fox is about as easily fixed as a Cashmore or a Midland Gun Company offering.

2) With regards to proof, most shooters/potential buyers would have no idea that you sent the gun to Mike Orlen and had the chokes opened, and determining whether or not the gun was still in proof takes professional judgement , outside of the usual "duffer "level of inquiry. Likely to not be a very nig factor. Plus, ultimately, it is what it is, and "buy the gun not the name". The gun is either serviceable for the buyers need, or he needs to look elsewhere.

3) As for "light whippy" - last night I was handling an early 1930's Midland Gun Co. offering of about 7-1/4 pounds. 12g, 2-3/4" chambers, post 1954 proofmarks. It was certainly a nice gun for light clays, maybe a little light for extended waterfowling, and I believe it has mostly been used recently as a "thieving crow assassinator". Nevertheless, there are lots of guns out there of such a weight and heavier, if thats what you want.

Understand I shoot and accumulate Ithacas and am a partisan of American guns. I like the Ithaca NID because it is big and strong and frankly doesnt get out of whack very much - but for the conditions described, for the average shooter who doesnt fire 300-400 rounds of targets a week, it likely is a meaningless distinction between quality American guns and English ( or Continental) offerings of similar weights and chamberings.

Shoot what makes you happy.

My Thoughts.

Regards

GKT

I am in the UK so getting the guns fixed isn't a problem, however problems are infrequent and you have some good people in the States to see to them if you have need to.

I shoot nothing but old english guns and the problems I have had over the years are almost nothing. The 130 year old rear trigger blade on my Purdey broke one January when the gorilla who poses as my girlfriend's cousin pulled hard on a covey of partridges with the safety on!

apart from that, i have had to do nothing at all in the way of repairs to any of my guns, once they are made serviceable.

Buy an honest Birmingham boxlock non-ejector for £400 and use it to death.

2.5" shells with 30g of No6 will kill anything at under 40 yards if you hit it square (no moose jokes please).

You will get a brit boxlock 12-bore anywhere from 6lb to 8lb - just decide what you want when you start looking.

I'm not talking about a gun solely for the field. Maybe I should define frequent use. How about 2-3 rounds of skeet per week, every week. Plus once per month on the sporting clays courses. Then, maybe 100 or so rounds of upland per year. That's about 5,000 rounds per year, indefinitely. I think I'll stick with the American made S x S where parts can be gotten from junker Sterlingworths or lower grade Parkers that are being parted out. Now, if I were buying a H & H, Purdey, etc. then it might not be a concern. But how about all the lower-end English SxS's that are coming in from the U.K and Australia? Where are you going to get parts that aren't hand made and/or have the gun out of commission for months? JMO of course. Silvers

I shoot my 1889 Remington and Parker hammer gun every week - sheet , 5-stand, and s.c.'s - no problems . As far as fit goes , get it bent , or do it yourself . It's not hard to do - just bent a friends stock 1 1/4" up . Bent my English hammer gun an 1 1/4" down . Search for " stock bending " - I had a post on doing it . Paul

Well built and good materials do make a difference. I own a 1926
Model E17 Empire model 3" magnum weighing 9 1/2 Lbs. I am the 3rd owner. I have owned the gun for 15 yrs. The previous owner also knew the original owner who was a market shooter. The gun has had no service or repairs done prior to my acquisition.
Bluing is worn, outside is excellent. Some pitting internally.
I had to have a set of Brileys put in as the choking of super full with modern cartridges made the choking too tight.
I shoot with skeet + 1/4 choke. The hinge pin is worn but gun still locks up tight. For parts I bought a complete broken down Greener for $100. So far has had the 2 firing pins replaced.
I shoot skeet, sporting, and field. about 5000 rds per year. Estimated the gun has seen quite a few hundred thousand rounds throughput without too much hassle and parts are still readily available here in OZ.

Silvers, British game guns get as much shooting as their NA counterparts. In the grand old days, many of the top shots would easily fire off 5000 rounds in a week of pheasant or grouse shooting. There is no problem as long as the proper loads are used. You would soon rattle a best gun loose if you used NA magnum loads in it.

As for repairs of guns whose makers no longer exist, this is not a problem since any replacement is a one off anyway, and a new tumbler on a gun will probably cost the same whether it is a Purdey or one of the long disappeared provincial makers.

Buy a gun you like, shoot as many appropriate shells as you want and accept that spares will have to be made on a one off basis for any British gun.

I forgot to mention that I use the same guns for skeet and sporting as i use in the field - stll no problems.

I prefer the English guns. The proofing system, especially in older guns, is very helpful in determining whether or not the gun has been modified in any way and if it can be safely used. Repairing a fine English gun in America is no more difficult, IMHO, than a repairing the better American SxS's: It often requires shipping your gun to a properly trained gunsmith/craftsman. I would not send any quality shotgun to the local gunsmith regardless of whether it was made in America, England, or anywhere else.

Getting 2 1/2" cartridges is no problem here in America. I don't know about 2" since I don't own any guns chambered for that length.

I own some vintage English shotguns dating from the late 1800's, and I'm a sporting clay/skeet shooter. Buy a gun of good quality in good condition and take proper care of it and there should be no problems.

Silvers I have been shooting 'Old Guns' for quite some years now. By old, I mean 1890 to 1920. The exceptions are my Model 21 duck gun (1947) and my Browning Superposed (1937), and a Perazzi MX20 (2004).

But the guns I shoot and hunt with most are all 80 or more years old. Two of these are British made guns - a Harkom and a Dickson, one is German (Lindner Daly) and one is American (Fox). I shoot them a lot, and keep a gunsmith handy in case of emergency. His comments on looking at the inside of my 1893 Dickson RA was "Look at this damn thing! it's perfect! Amazing how well these guns are hold up."

Similar reactions for the Harkom and the Lindner Daly. The guns function perfectly and I have never had a failure. The Fox has had a few issues - minor really, but it did require hand repairs and replacement of parts.

Just the way it works. No parts inventories sitting on shelves, but you get a terrific gun that has been made carefully by hand to very high standards. Worth it, IMO.

C Man