doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Ideal ?'s / French Proof mark ?'s

Hello all, it's been a while since I've posted anything, but I still visit regularly.

I have just acquired a Manufrance Ideal No.2.

This is the first one I have ever seen, let alone handled.

This is a 16 gauge, with 29 inch fluid steel barrels, straight grip, and splinter fore end.

Do they all have the "retractable sling", the loaded chamber indicators, the unusual fore end latch?

Can anyone explain proof marks etc from photos below, there seem to be both black powder and nitro loads specified, but I can't identify any marks that hint date of manufacture etc.

All assistance greatly appreciated.





Thanks

Mark

Congrats on your Manufrance Ideal! I've seen some Ideals without the retractable sling and the trademark "scotch pattern" checkering. All the ones I've seen missing these features seem to be the older Ideals with Damascus barrels and the eyeglass trigger guard. As for info on the proof marks, I'll let some of the more knowledgeable folks here answer those questions. But, I do believe that the PT under the crown is a "nitro" mark and the 6.5 would translate to having 65mm chambers. The 17.0 is in relation to bore diameter and "Charge D'epreuve" would mean "charge of test" or in our language, proof tested. Hopefully one of our French speaking peeps will be here soon to help you out.
Again, congrats on the Ideal......they are fantastic guns.

Best,
Dustin

I am bringing this post to current in hopes of some assistance from the weekend crowd.

Thanks

Mark

Mark, "noire" means black in French. "Charge normale" should be the working load rather than the proof load, and it's 4.5 grams of black powder pushing 30 grams of shot (1 1/16 oz). Back in the late 19th century, that exact same load was the PROOF load for a standard 20 gauge, so I'd say your gun is pretty stout. T2 was an early bulk smokeless powder, and that's a proof load. The marks on the barrels (crown enclosed in branches) indicates a black powder proof, and the fact there are two on each barrel indicate a superior (higher level) proof. Your gun was therefore proofed with both black and bulk smokeless powder, which was common practice.

It's very difficult to date guns by French proofmarks. The crown over PT dates to 1900 according to my information. Some different marks came into effect in 1924, and they're absent on yours, so I'd put it in the 1900-1924 period.

Someone might have a Manufrance serial number table to give you more specific information on date of production.