doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com When H&H started to really manufacture its guns?

Sorry for my really bad english language,I'm Italian...
I've lost the old post where I remember there was the answer to this same question.
I'm not sure, but IF I remember well, I read sometimes ago in this forum that in the first years Holland & Holland didn't really manufactured "in house" its guns, buying them from other manufacturers.
In this case, would you so kind to help me, telling when H&H started to manufacture its guns, and the name of the manufacturers that produced the guns in the first years, before the beginning of the "real" H&H production?
Thanks in advance!

As I understand things, Holland always made some of their own guns. In the early days, Harris Holland may have just sourced them from various people and put his name on them, or he may have "made" them, much like other makers made their guns.

For instance, Purdey the Elder never "made" a set of bbls or a set of locks. He made part of the gun (I think he was a stocker) and he bought in the other parts, had other work done, and oversaw the completion and finishing of the weapon. Then he put his name on it as the gun's maker.

This was standard practice in the trade and it wasn't until the makers started to grow and business really took off that they could bring all the work in house at a factory. Even then, they still farmed stuff out.

I think H&H built their factory in about 1890. At that time they started making their new Royal-grade hammerless shotguns and other guns.

But they still had stuff made by the trade. They continued this practice for a long time and may still do it today.

OWD

I don't think H&H ever made a boxlock in their factory. They acquired W&C Scott in 1985, and boxlocks were made in the Scott factory that carried the H&H name.

According to Donald Dallas' book "Holland & Holland The Royal Gunmaker", page 11, early on H&H was a retailer of guns and not a manufacturer. In Chapter Seven "From Retail to Manufacture", on page 109, Holland's factory was completed in 1898.

Dig (a.k.a. smallbore) actually had a H&H hammergun for sale on his web site some time ago with the serial number that matched the gun H&H records show as being the first gun they manufacutred. The gun was sold.

527 harrow road in the spring of 1893 - 1st factory
moved to 906 harrow road in 1898 - still there today.

in 1920 an autograph book presented to henry holland signed by all holland employees listing the date that each employee began working for the firm.

5 gunmakers listed a date of pre 1893. keep in mind that since the founding date of 1835, several former employees could have retired prior to this autograph book being presented to henry. so there very well could have been more employees who's signatures would not have been present.

this is one of the best piece's of evidence that before the first factory went up that holland only finished guns, and some authorities argue that point as well. they used outworkers to the trade, John Robertson of boss fame and dryden being two of the named outworkers listed in the books. W&C Scott would be the "firm" that is universaly considered the maker of holland guns during the pre factory era.

Webley and scott did the "H & H shot and regulated " birmingham proofed boxlocks

The higher quality "Northwood" boxlock was built by S. Wright & son and A. Brown & son birmingham

hope this helps
H&H

This is an interesting topic. I'll have to look into it some more.

Just about all the British makers outsourced, or bought in, certain parts of their guns - some of them had more work done outside of the shop than others.

Like I said before, Purdey the Elder wasn't "making" guns. He was buying parts, assembling them, and adding his own area of expertise. So was he a maker or wasn't he?

At what point does a maker become a Maker? If they're having all the parts made by someone else and then finishing the gun, I think they're the Maker.

They're still responsible for the overall fit, finish, and quality of the gun and they're doing far more than a retailer would do to bring a gun to market.

If they're buying complete guns and and adding their names to them, then I would say that they're not.

Right now a number of the smaller British makers are having parts of their guns made by a handful of guys in the trade. They are also outsourcing things like finishing, color case hardeing, blacking, etc.

So are these makers really making guns, or are they following a pattern used by H. Holland?

OWD

Have just returned from a 3 hour tour of the H&H factory and subsequent stop at their store. Bought an overpirced H&H hat which has "H&H Gunmakers Est. 1835" embroidered on it.

According to the Scott book: "Also during this period H&H reintroduced their 'Northwood' range based on the Scott action. This was a gun that had been made in the past by the Birmingham gun trade for H&H . . . " It's not entirely clear, but it sounds as if the reintroduced Northwoods were made in the Scott factory (along with the Cavalier), but that previous Northwoods had been made "in the trade" for H&H in Birmingham.

Gents

Not to disagree with L. Brown's comments, but all the info I posted last night came from Donalds book, I will have to look in the Scott book as well. speaking of overpriced, you should hear what I paid for that book!!!!!! LOL


Tudurgs, If I may ask, How much did you pay for the hat?
I would like to own one myself, You can email me at jordan_rahal@yahoo.com if you don't want to state it here in the forum.

H&H

Hat was 20 pounds - about $30 USD. Nice quality green baseball cap with H&H logo on front- made in China.