doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Syracuse Arms?

Just curious if the followers of such oddballs have recorded a serial number lower than #41? It is a 12, "Hollenbeck", 30" fine dam, round pistol, SA dog checkered buttplate, D2 and 1893 Patent, pair of snipe, a quail, sunburst, dog with bird in mouth on triggerguard, DTNE, snapon foreend, 14"lop, 2 3/4"dah, not that heavy. Gun is absolutely filthy and has seen some use... but I'm tickled. After some cleaning, I'll post some pics(may take awhile). Tom, Dave, Bob,...et al... any comments, concerns?

Sounds neat. Get some pics taken and post them, there are not many Hollenbeck SAC guns around. Ross

To answer your question, I have recorded one lower serial number, #37; which is also grade marked "D2" but is engraved entirely different with pointing dog scenes and birds, although the unknown engraver was a differenct individual from the artisan who engraved later SAC guns (early guns feature much lighter engraving and tighter scrolls). I am glad to hear that this SAC gun has resurfaced, as I wondered where it had gone. Someone claiming to be the owner contacted me nearly 3 years ago for information on gun #41. Basically he was trying to bait me into placing a value on the gun, which I wouldn't do without seeing the piece; although he did provide enough description so that I could understand the gun was in well used condition. He was to send some photos, which never arrived; and none of my attempts to contact this individual were successful afterwards (something I said (and I don't have a clue what it was) set this guy off; he was a disabled vet and hated the president because he wasn't doing enough for vets, etc.). At any rate, I am glad the gun has found a good home. I have found nothing to tell me what defines a D2 Grade Hollenbeck; so I would be most interested in seeing photos of your gun to compare to my example for clues. I do believe the "D" designation denotes their highest grade; but I am confused by the additional "2" stamp and the fact that mine and your example don't come close to the quality of later Hollenbeck and Syracuse Grade D guns. At one time I thought the additional stamp denoted an engraving pattern; but, since our guns are engraved differently, that wouldn't be true. Maybe the "2" stamp denotes
an amount of engraving coverage or perhaps a dollar amount for engraving? But the truth is that I really have no idea; and unless some literature surfaces to provide some clues, we must settle for the fun associated with speculating. At any rate, guns number 37 and 41 are the only two SAC guns I have located with a "D2" Grade stamp, and I seriously doubt that more than a handful were ever produced. Tom

Will do Ross. Thanks for the info Tom. It came from a sporting shop, I got the impression it was traded in on the latest auto...perhaps a relative of the previous owner. Certainly there is no comparison to a later "D". I would compare it to an Ithaca/Smith grade 2 or 3. Yes, it has been used hard, but IMO not that often. Just not preserved very well. The right barrel does need some pitting removed,I believe not to be a problem. The forearm has pressed down some barbed wires on the left hand edge and needs an ebony tip, but with a refinish and recheckering, it will be hard to find any faults. The rest of the gun just needs a good cleaning(lots of dried oil). No, it's not a collector's dream. It will only have traces of color when cleaned up. It will make a nice unusual shooter for a few hundred bucks... and I like those "just a handful" type of guns. I'll post or send some pics for your files when I get it presentable.

Just thought Id bring this up about the gun RR posted pics of on the other thread.
We need to see some more pics RR. Looks like a very unusual gun. Ross

RR's gun




Its stock is configured similar to my Late B grade

Honestly, I can't tell you how many times that I've tried to take quality photos of this gun. It is well worn in spots, yet is what it is, lots of life and birds to be had with it. Well under 7 pounds. Some restoration will occur at some time, yet I have many projects. Ross, you have quite the memory. It really fits in line perfectly with all of TG's findings, besides the engraving being unusual. Tom knows what he is talking about. He is quite an asset. When I can get get some quality photos of the gun and possibly a few others(Hollenbeck SAC'S), I will send them to your private emails as this may end up being part of an article on the early engravers. Sure would be fun to exchange a grouse/woodcock hunt, for a pheasant/quail hunt, for a quail/dove hunt. Had 6-10 inches of snow today, so the dog was picking on me, only one more week of pheasant for us. Expect a private email from me over the next week or two. Please be patient as my dog and I focus on the remaining pheasant, grouse, and goose season till 2008 and the holiday season's requirements. I love the guns, and respect their wishes to take some game.

Not seeing your edit Ross before posting, is that the TS gun? My gun has the extra form behind the cheeks, yet has no checkered panels, nor the 's' grip, more like my my late 'A' grade 20. I was waiting to see that gun at Louisville.

The gun is my late B grade 16ga. Here in Nebraska we get to hunt pheasant and quail till the end of January. Quail population is heavy this year but I havent really had a chance to get out. Poor excuse when I live on the land I hunt though.
Ross

Ross:
Is that photo of the SAC gun with the grouse the early D2 that R.R. acquired? If so, would sure like to see the engraving to compare to my example (although I still have no information that will explain the D2 grade designation on these early high-grade SAC guns). As to your original earlier question R.R., pertaining to low serial numbers, a few months ago I was allowed to handle what may be Hollenbeck's original prototype; a high-grade gun with no serial number and some features not seen on standard production guns (Ross has perviously posted some photos). I need to write an article featuring this gun; but have been lazy and unmotivated lately. R.R. the stock carving behind the cheek-piece, un-checkered check panels, and round knob grip seem to be standard production features on the earliest high-grade SAC guns. I suspect the cheek panel carving on Ross's late Grade B was a special order item, as I do not recall having seen that feature on another late Grade B gun and it is not shown in catalog depictions of the B grade. Thanks for posting something about Syracuse; it's been a while.

Tom,
Yes that is a pic that RR posted on another post. I copied it and reposted it here to further the discussion.
RR, I am really interested to see the engraving on your gun. Im sure it is excellent.


Tom, Did you discover if the barrel length on said prototype are correct or have they been cut? If the barrel length is original I would be more inclined to buy it if it is still for sale. Were there any problems with the gun? Ross