doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Resurrection of the Lefever

Miller,
As you know, for the dolls head to load up, the hingepin or underlug would have to shear. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but historically, frame have failed on the beam or at the fillet of the watertable/breachface.

Having a dollshead effectively double dimensions the "on-face" fit. I appreciate their nostalgic presence in a vintage gun or even a replica of one.

Chuck;
You or I one is missing something here. The frame of a break action double is in the form of a L, laid over with the long leg horizontal forming the bar & the short leg vertical forming the standing breech. The axial thrust applied to the standing breech thus has a tendency to bend/flex the standing breech backward, which if severe enough results in that failure at "the fillet of the watertable/breachface" you mentioned. This flexing is exactly what the Doll's Head is designed to prevent by opposing that axial thrust from "Both" sides. Its sort of like when I used to hitch a drawn plow to the flat drawbar of my old John Deere I did so with a "Clevis" (Shackle to a rigger). Worked much better than trying to simply bolt two flat bars together as it had to be able to pivot for doing corners. You Chuck would have been the last one I would have suspected of failing to grasp this principal.

I don't know if this is still the case but when Andy was still in business I'm almost positive that he owned the rights to the Lefever name. I saw a bunch of Lefever paperwork that seemed to support this. It's been several years and I don't know if this is the case especially given Andy's exit from the business.

I know that his main man Henry went to work for Central NY Guworks before Andy went belly up. I believe that Henry also worked for Lefever in Lee Center for a few years before Andys Custom Shop so he may have some insite. I hope this helps some.

Parris

There are at least two good illustrations and explanations of the theoretical operation of the doll's head in gun books (can't locate them at present but think maybe Garwood might have one). If the shoulders of the dh bear on the front shoulders of the mortise, the dh "triangulates" the flex of the action bar, as per Pipes description--another sort of tie rod. If the bearing shoulders are gapped because of the clever adjustment of the ball hinge such that the top lever looks nice on the right hand and the breeches and dh are proud of the fences and the mortise, obviously the advantages of the dh as a "holdfast" if not a "fastener" are lost.

jack

Keith, you may find a thread on the Lefever forum that addresses breaking the ball loose. The screw is much easier to address than the spanner holes. I built a punch that I have used to shock the front end. After soaking with whatever, a couple of good hits with my punch has always broken things loose until that 16 gauge. If Miller can't give you some advice, send it to Buck Hamlin. I never tried just shooting the gun for a few boxes. Next time I'll use that technique. The truth is that I've only owned a couple of Lefevers that needed adjustment, so I don't have much experience with turning the ball.

Sorry I took so long replying. I just flew LA 2 NY & I'm using a phone here.

My criticism of the dollshead goes more to manufactureability. I have a bilplane that's wire braced. But the cantilever monoplane has advantages

I love nothing more than rooting through old sporting periodicals just reading this and reading that. However, the discussion of Lefever dolls heads and other forms of extension ribs in pre and just post twentieth century periodicals has defeated my speed reading and comprehension skills. There is just too much to digest. I have it all marked off so that some day I can get it copied and into researchable form. It is so much fun to read about guns that contributors thought would wear out in a few hundred rounds that we are still shooting with heavy loads today. Personally, I don't think a doll's head is worth a hoot, except for appearance or as an engineering exercise. One of my most heavily used graded Parkers doesn't have one. Late Trojan Grade Parkers don't have one and are doing well, so far. Parker single barrels don't have one. I think Tom Skeuse could have saved a bunch of money on the Repros if he had made them as non ejector guns without extension ribs.

I'm not sure what Chuck means by "load up" but the doll's head on the Lefever is also the location of the locking lug. So the doll's head, rib and barrels are held DOWN, by the locking bolt, when closed. Therefore, preventing forward barrel movement, by the doll's head(on a Lefever Syracuse) is a secondary function. Remove the doll's head and the barrels would fall open. No doubt they are complicated to machine and fit but I think they look classy and the one on the Lefever has a real function.

The biggest fallacy of a "Doll's Head is that it plays any part in "Holding the Bbls Down" to the frame. It was not intended to & in fact cannot hold the bbls down. A DS/I grade Lefever with only a straight rib extension, effectively has had the Doll's Head" removed, that being the "Swelled Out" portion at the end of the rib extension. The locking bolt on the DS engaging the notch in the rib extension "Holds the Bbls Down" quite as effectively as it does on the H or higher grades. I understand what you are saying Jim, but just to make sure everyone does, for your statement to be true the Rib Extension would have to be entirely removed. Just removing the doll's head portion of it would not allow the bbls to fall open. The longevity of the DS/I grade guns is probably ample evidence that the strength of a Lefever frame is adequate for its job without the re-enforcement of the doll's head. There can be little doubt though from a purely mechanical standpoint that adding that extra joint cannot help but re-enfore the frame against the axial thrust applied to it. That is as long as it is properly & well fitted, which most Lefevers seem to be.
This is almost certainly untrue on cheaply made guns which need the extra strength even more, & is probably what has given the doll's head a bad name, as they are often found on such guns with enough clearence between them & their mortise to throw a cat through. With a fit like that it is of course totally useless.

We don't often disagree, 2-P, but I'll make an exception, in this case. If the doll's head, or rib extension on a H grade Syracuse lefever(for example) were removed, what would keep the barrels from falling open?? Assuming the hammers were cocked, of course. It would be the same as when you're holding the top lever open, wouldn't it?

I can't imagine why anyone would think the doll's head would "hold the barrels down". However, in the case of the gun we're talking about, the doll's head does, indeed, hold the barrels down. Not because it is a doll's head shape but because that's where the locking lug is. Have you looked at a Lefever, 2-piper?