doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Falling block...

Hi fella's ,I just got my hand's on an old dilapitated sidelever falling block 450 express the straight grip buttstock is split badly and wired up ,the buttplate is horn with a monogrammed D F & J and has a chipped toe,

The side lever seem's to be missing something right where you place your thumb to actuate it ,the action is quite dirty but function's fine ,the safety wich is automatic on cocking is just ahead of the trigger and work's fine ,the barrel is toast! pitted throughout and what rifleing that's left is hardly visible......I would like to have this gun for a project ,the action is what interest's me but I have no idea what to offer ,I know it's not worth much but I want to be fair,any help appreciated

The other part of the equation is 49 round's of ammo, there are three full box's of ten round's these are from the Dominion cartridge company in Montreal,there are also 5 loose round's of the Dominion ammo there are also two lot's of Eley cartridges 10 in one bundle and 5 in the other these round's are coiled brass and some of the head's on these are corroded a little,they are wrapped in a grey color Eley paper with the load info written on it.
any help appreciated

sounds like a locking lever Fraser.....might be worth more than you think......

Yeah ,Mr Bertram I did a little more investigating and it look's to be a Daniel Fraser side lever....the condition is very poor though.

Anyone else have any thought's?

Most good build-able Fraser actions with the locking lever are worth in the 3K range. It is hard to say in poor condition. Any pictures possible?

I'm going to try and post some pic's by the weekend,thank's for your interest....if you want pm me your e-mail address,it's easier for me that way

There is a possibility that although it is a Fraser designed action, it was only finished off by the Fraser Company.

Webley also produced these actions and it may well be that rough machined parts were provided by Webley to Fraser for final finishing. After all, Webley had the manufacturing capacity and a very large workforce, whereas Fraser employed only a dozen or so artizans.

Like many 'Named' British gunmakers, not all of them actually made the weapons they sold, from scratch, but simply bought in actions and components to assemble, finish, barrel and stock.

A restoration would be an ideal project for anyone with the skills or the money (in these times of economic hardship)to finance the venture.

Best ask the vendor what he wants, and then try and talk him down a bit, haggle over the price, point out it will cost a fortune to restore, etc. You wouldn't have to do a restoration all at once, just a bit here, and a bit there, until it's finished.

Harry

Here are the photo's ... [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img] [img:center][/img]

To Newf re "Falling Block":-
You have an early production D. & J. Fraser .450-3 1/4" BP Express sporting rifle, undoubtedly from Fraser's earliest production run, which was probably supplied to a Newfoundland distributor for seal hunting (See my article in the Journal of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association, Vol. 3, No. 9, pages 2 thro' 8; and Vol. 3, No. 10, page 63 Addendum; back issues of which are available from the HBSA website (UK), under "Publications").
From your photos I note that you are missing the latch mechanism at the end of the side lever which locks the action closed.
These actions are usually only serial numbered on the internal parts with Fraser's Total Production Serial Number in his "Sporting Rifle Series", which is also marked on the bottom of the barrel next to the action. The barrels were usually supplied marked "A & T" (Adams & Tait, gun-barrel riflers of No. 1, New Buildings, Prince Street, Birmingham, and will usually carry a larger four digit
"A & T" serial number stamped on the bottom of the barrel further towards the muzzle.
Further to Harry Eales comment that Webley manufactured actions for Fraser, I would like to ask if he has any documentary evidence or proof of his statement.
In my book "The British Falling Block Breechloading Rifle from 1865" I had quoted Daniel Fraser's younger son as stating that his father was very proud of the fact that his whole manufacturing process was completed under the one roof.
It is my belief that the only major, bought-out, manufactured items used by Fraser were those "A & T" barrels, and that those were only used in his earliest single barrel production, before he began making his own barrels.
Jonathan Kirton, Canada

Mr.Kirton,
In my post I alluded to the possibility of some of Dan'l Frasers actions being made by Webley. I have no access to any unpublished documents that may prove this, or do I even know if any exist.

I would however, respectfully draw your attention to Volume 6 of Wal Winfers series of books on British Single Shot Rifles. On pages 51 through to 54 inclusive, the author refers to this very possibility himself, and puts forth very sound business reasons why this may have taken place. Certainly Webley were advertising Frasers Patented Breech Action in .450" and .500" calibres made by them in 1888.

Winfer also states there are some receipts/documents in existance that showed there were trade dealings between Fraser and Webley although apparently none of those that remain refer directly to the Fraser Rifle Action.

I must admit Winfer puts forth good, sound, arguments. Even up to two or three decades ago most people who bought one of the British Single Shot Rifles,(albeit they were then second or third hand), especially those engraved or otherwise labelled as to be from one of the 'London' names, assumed that the gunmaker who's name appeared on the rifle, had made that rifle, from scratch. Today we know differently, and that many (although not all)of the top names bought in mass produced actions and parts from the Birmingham Gun Makers and even from some Continental sources.

Sadly things aren't always what they may appear to be on the surface. Outsourcing parts or components is nothing new, and it still takes place today in nearly every industry.

Harry

Respectfully with all that being said ,and thank-you all for your reply's ...but can someone give me some idea as to value of the gun and cartridge's...I should also note that I have also discoverd that the breach block has some play as well .

Thank's again