doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help on a Greener, please.

Gunman;
I Quote me;

I did not you see totally disagree with you. I did however you see spend 35 years in the machinist trade & am familar with precision measurements. What we are measuring in determining chamber depth is the junction line of two cones having different angles to their respective walls. An exact measurement of this junction with a solid plug gage requires an exact match of plug diameter to junction diameter.
Since this is a "World Wide" forum I just wanted to make certain that others out there realized that while this plug made to British Specs might well give the desired results on the Greener in question, it is certainly "NOT" the "ONLY" way of determining that length. If someone should try to apply it to guns of other nationalities it may in fact not even be a reliable method.
Nuff Said; If you don't understand the basis of measuring chamber depth, then that's your problem, not mine.

You do it your way and I will do it my way .I think we can only argee to disagree on this one . I dont think I will persuade you to my way of thinking and you certainly wont change my mind.
Prehaps we should both start a new post on the subject? Then we can argue till the cows come home.

The whole top and bottom of the original question ,was, was the Greener made as a 2&3/4 or as a 3"? we have gone off topic and for that I appologise. We have not answered the question and I'm not sure if the chambers were ever accuratly measued ,by what ever means .Whilst it is possible that the gun was made as a 3" ,it would almost certainly be a heavy action, but without a close examination every thing wuold be a guess . Greeners might have some record of the original spec but short of paying for a search ,I doubt there will ever be a definative answer.

Daryl, I don't believe there's any contradiction there--assuming your guns date from after 1925. From then on, the chamber length was a required marking. Since yours all have the chamber length marked, I'm guessing they all date from that later period. The 12 over LC was no longer used after 1925. Chamber length stamped on the barrel flats, if you don't have a SN chart from the particular maker, is a good way to separate 1904-25 guns from those proofed from 1925-55.

I am most grateful to all of you who have taken the time to respond.

I've asked Greener for an informal answer to only the chamber length question, along with a committment to pay for a full report if I end up with the gun. They have yet to respond, and if anyone who has dealt with them previously might comment on the likelihood of them doing so, that too would be appreciated.

The owner tells me that he originally measured them with some type of brass gauge from Galazan, I believe. He has agreed to re-measure with a better steel gauge.

In the mean time, all further info, suggestions, etc. will still be appreciated.

Back to the question about chamber length. Because the Brits typically use the .800 plug gauge to measure chamber length, there can be a problem--to which I believe Miller was referring--if a British gun has its chambers lengthened by a gunsmith using standard American 12 gauge reamers. Our 12ga standard is .798. Therefore, if an original 2 1/2" Brit gun has its chambers lengthened using American reamers, the .800 plug gauge would still read it as 2 1/2". Something like the Galazan chamber gauge, however, would read it as 2 3/4".

So, in the case of this Greener, if the owner used a Galazan gauge to measure chamber length and came out with a measurement of 3", it's quite possible that the gun started life with 2 3/4" chambers and, at some later date, had its chambers extended to 3" in this country--obviously without British reproof. The easy way to tell if they were ORIGINALLY 3" would be to use the .800 plug gauge.

Larry, sorry for my post which was not clear. I believe the Betts gun is from the 1920s, but the other two are --------Greener 16 bore from 1900 and the Cashmore from somewhere around 1905-10. The Greener has 16 over C in a diamond with an extra mark on the barrel flat of "2 3/4 Case". If I am reading Englehardt correctly from your post, he would say that this gun should be marked with a 16 over LC in a diamond, which it is not. Same thought on the Cashmore ca. 1905. It is marked with a 12 over C and with " 3 in. cases " on the lower rib in front of the barrel flat. Both of these guns seem to be contradictions of Englehardt, whose explanation of the C and LC mark differs from Wirnsberger. It seems Wirnsberger is consistent with the guns at hand. By the way, no evidence any reproof on either gun.

Owner just informed me that chambers measured 2 13/16 after re-measuring with a steel gauge.

When you said he used the Galazan gauge I had my doubts about the length he stated.

Daryl, Kennett's explanation works for your Greener 16. He states the LC, for all gauges, is only for 3" chambers or longer. (Engelhardt says it was used for 2 3/4" or longer on guns 16 gauge or smaller.) What Wirnsberger says on p. 102 matches with your Cashmore. However, later on, Wirnsberger also runs into difficulty on the gauge over C or LC mark. Look on p. 110. He has 12 over C as a 3" chamber prior to 1925, when in fact it was also used on guns with chambers shorter than 3". He also has the 12 over LC in use since 1925 for guns over 3". In fact, it was in use prior to 1925 and was dropped at that time, because the exact length of the chamber in inches was required after 1925--thus rendering the LC mark obsolete. The 12 over C remained, as a gauge marking.

Never looked at the history of those two marks before. Some interesting disagreements in the proofmark material. We probably need to get a reading from the proofhouse on those.

Larry, no wonder it's hard to remember the rules, when three experts dissagree and some experts contradict themselves in their own books. I guess looking at unaltered guns is somewhat safe, if we assume the proofhouse was consistent.