doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Manufrance Ideal - help with grade etc.

Mes chers amis,
je suis enchanté de toutes les informations que vous m’avez apportées. Tout a beaucoup plus de sens maintenant.

Si je ne me trompe pas, le montage de la mienne correspond à la figure 2 de l’image suivante.

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/11zfvF_ZiqTRYyV9r8tMpCktjMMu54zzM/view?usp=drivesdk[/img]

Je crois que ce que Fab500 a dit, c’est qu’après 1960 les canons ont été re-testés et non pas refusés. J’en profite pour demander comment on sait que c’était après 1960 ? Par le type de poinçon ?
À quoi se réfèrent les marquages 11-E, et le numéro 1717 ?

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oFRS56btSksJoHHkw4pCRRx1HicIAOoy/view?usp=drivesdk[/img]

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3H5Lt-rXeyRuLuwB_m19Fk4RgPE0q2y/view?usp=drivesdk[/img]

Aussi, le mécanisme qui permet la séparation du fût des canons de l’arme, selon le livre que j’ai, n’aurait équipé que les armes produites la première année. Mais apparemment les canons sont de 1890, déjà produits après l’exposition universelle de Paris, où l’Ideal aurait été distinguée par une Médaille d’or. Est-ce que j’interprète bien ?

[img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RI8BwOhWcNT3GzSU6Raxioukag1XhEIH/view?usp=drivesdk[/img]


Une fois de plus merci pour toutes les opinions et informations que vous avez apportées et que vous pourrez continuer à donner.

Gustavo

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My dear friends,
I am delighted with all the information you have brought me. Everything makes much more sense now.
If I am not mistaken, the assembly of mine corresponds to figure 2 of the following image.
I believe what Fab500 said was that after 1960 the barrels were re-tested and not rejected. I take this opportunity to ask how do we know it was after 1960? By the type of proof mark?
What do the markings 11-E, Gold Medal and the number 1717 refer to?
Also, the mechanism that allows the separation of the stock from the barrels of the gun, according to the book I have, would only have equipped guns produced in the first year. But apparently the barrels are from 1890, already produced after the Paris World Exhibition, where the Ideal would have been distinguished with a Gold Medal. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Once again, thank you for all the opinions and information you have brought and may continue to provide.

Gustavo

Gustavo,

I'm no expert of proofs, particularly French proofs but I'm assuming Fab is basing that re-test remark about post 1960 from specific proofs marks he is identifying.

I have no experience with early Ideals using Damascus barrels. So no first hand knowledge of the markings you ask about, except to assume they relate to the barrels or to the action those barrels were originally fitted to. And I don't think those are chopper lump barrels so I'm in agreement the construction aligns with fig 2.

The forend latch appears (no clear pic) to be the standard latch they used on extractor models on all the post 1910 guns I have experience with. I've owned Ideals that date from 1911 to the early 1960s. All were extractor guns except for the one I have kept...a 1921 gun model 7RE-C Perfection.

Bienvenu Gustavo et Merci Fab. I also am curious about the 11-E. Also the 347.

If the 347 was a model number, it should be on the action. When the barrels were made they used an entirely different model naming system. The 3XX model name format came into being in 1931

i'm going to add to the confusion: first, i will note the action does not have the rising bites...and i understand that the basic field models did not - all i have experience with feature the rising bites. i briefly "owned" a very basic (and badly abused) 16 gauge, at a dallas gunshow sometime around 1980 - taken on trade, and in too poor condition to help....i sold it to someone a few hours later, but i have no memory of the particulars - this was the first ideal i had ever seen (and started my interest).
i think it is obvious that this gun is a composite, engraving, restocking, refinishing (and recase coloring) have been done at some point in the more recent past.

the barrels show dual stamps of the basic st.etienne proofs (single fronds) that have been overstamped with bore diameters, expressed in mm. as james says, the action bears proofs (the double sets of arrows/targets) from between the wars era, but in that period the serial numbers should be stamped (upside down) on the breach face - and what's stamped there is illegible, but, it starts with a 6, and ends with a 7, and has three digits that might have been 3s

the profusion of numbers stamped on this gun - 1717, 7724, 347, 1x90, 63337, 11-E - do more to cloud than illuminate the questions. but, if i were a gambler i'd bet that the action was a grade 1 from the late 20's....that has been extensively engraved (which engraving does not look like lamanu work)....and mated to a set of very early damascus barrels (i figure 4472 - which would put them in the 1887-1894 sequence, as shown by argo). the #4472 has been added to the action, and the #63337 has been added to barrel set, so that they are confirmed as an assembly. the 1x90, and 70, stamped on the underrib of the barrels, look consistent with numerous french guns with assembly numbers shown in that same area. as james noted, the 347 (if it were a model number) would be post 1930 - and would have been stamped on the bottom rib of the (long gone) barrels. the 18.4 stamps could likely be the clean-up bore diameters from the rework, and the 70's stamped on the watertables would accurately mate the barrels to their new home.

all this would truly be called a "swag" - and worth every dime you have paid for it....

Medaille D’or refers to a gold medal won at exposition by Manufrance. Many French gun makers put that bit of advertising on their wares after nailing down an award at exposition.

I’m thinking Fab made note that Damascus guns were not excepted for proof or reproof after 1960.

Best,
Ted

Salut


3 canons en damas éclair. De haut en bas, un 2 baguettes, un 4 baguettes, un 8 baguettes mal restaurés que je reprendrai ultérieurement.

Salut,
Si vous me donnez le numéro de série de votre Idéal perfection, il est possible que je retrouve l'année exacte de sa fabrication.

Dans mon premier message, j'ai indiqué que la bascule du fusil était celle d'un modèle numéro 2.

En 1960, le banc d'épreuve de Saint-Etienne a introduit ces 2 poinçons pour indiquer une ré-épreuve (nouvelle épreuve) pour arme modifiée.