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Joined: Jun 2011
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Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 30 |
Just wondering if anyone has ever see or heard of a lee enfield rifle being sporterized by W.W Greener? I do know that Greener made lee enfields for the word war but have never heard of one being sporterized by Greener. The reason I ask is I have a man says he has one. Im going to see it in the next few days and he also says he has paperwork on it? Any info would be very helpful.
Last edited by ilikedoubles; 11/10/11 05:38 PM.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 571 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 571 Likes: 9 |
There were some made by BSA and a couple other British makers (can't remember the names of the others)for the public, so I would not doubt if Greener did the same. I am currently building a plains game rifle out of a sporterized one by Golden State Arms (they bought many of them in the 1950s and sporterized them to sell here in the US) My uncle gave it to me and after shooting it some I have come to really like the old 303 cartridge. I have heard they are still popular in Canada for Moose guns. Some people rebarrel them in 45-70. Keep us posted and if you could get some pictures I would be interested.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,768 Likes: 115
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,768 Likes: 115 |
Cetainly a lot were Sporterised by Parker Hale in Birmingham. Lagopus.....
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,912 Likes: 215
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,912 Likes: 215 |
I don't recall Greener as an original mfg'r of the SMLE,,either the No1 or the No4 rifle.
I guess you can't discount anything being made up in the early post war years including sporterized SMLE's by Greener.
As far as the commercial Lee/Speed Sporters, BSA made most of them.
LSA also made some but they are not often seen.
They were made in several patterns from Officers Carbines of a more Military style configuration up to and including the fine Lee/Speed commercial sporter.
They were made mostly on the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield (Long Lee) actions. But BSA did offer some of the versions on the No1 rifle.
These were true commercial rifles, not x-military rifles rebuilt into sporters.
A very long list of makers bought and then marked and retailed those BSA products with their own name.
Retailers marks commonly are placed on the bbl or the dust cover of the Lee Sporters.
Here's a short list of some of the retailers names seen on the sporters including 2 versions of the BSA name:
ARMY & NAVY Co-operative Society Ltd.
Henry Atkin
Frederick Beesley
Bentley & Playfair
BIRMINGHAM SMALL ARMS Co. Ltd.
BSA & M. Co.
John Blanch & Son London
Thomas Bland & Sons
C. G. Bonehill
Charles Boswell
CHURCHILL (GUNMAKERS) Ltd.
Cogswell & Harrison Ltd.
COOMBES COMPANY Ltd.
W.W. Greener Ltd.
HOLLAND & HOLLAND, Limited
I. Hollis
Hollis, Bentley & Playfair
Holloway & Co.
Holloway & Naughton Ltd
W.J. JEFFERY & Co.
Charles Lancaster
Alexander Martin
Charles Osborne & Co. Ltd.
WILLIAM POWELL & SON
J. Rigby
J. Robertson
Victoria Small Arms Co.
WESTLEY RICHARDS & CO. LTD.
James Woodward
William Moore & Grey
Any true commercial Lee Sporter bolt rifle is a nice find.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 683
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 683 |
Some one made what I believe was called "the Enforcer" on a No. 4 LE. It was for LE, as I remember, and was in .308.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,912 Likes: 215
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,912 Likes: 215 |
The 'Enforcer' was a #4 variation made by Enfield Arsenal for Police use. Sporter butt stock, Pecar variable 'scope, recoil pad. The 'scope is non QD. The rifle also has target sights.
Enfield also made other variants at the time (60's -80's) like the Envoy and Centar, both commercial versions of the Militarys L39 series rifle (half stocked iron sighted #4)
The L39 & L42 (a half stock scope sighted #4) series rifles were chambered in 7.62 NATO. The rifle was also used as a test base for other calibers.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15 |
FYI, this Greener thread is happening over in the Classic Single Barrel forum as well. I don't want to miss anything, so I'll post here what I posted over there.
....
Hello gents, I'm new to this forum, but you can find my posts on Lee Speed rifles on the many Lee Enfield and Nitro Express forums. I am not an expert on them, but I am a dedicated student. I have been researching these rifles for several years and have collected data on several hundred so far, in an effort to work out a reliable dating scheme for these undated firearms.
If you own (or know about) a commercial Lee rifle, I would be grateful if you would fill out my Lee Speed survey. (Please send me a private message and I will send it).
As for Greener, they operated a military SMLE factory during WWI, which was eventually taken over by the government. There is some dispute as to whether Greener manufactured complete rifles (including actions) or just components. Skennerton takes one view and Greener another.
As for sporting rifles on the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield action, Greener was one of the earliest private retailers to offer them (a colleague of mine has one by Greener from the mid-1890s). Sometimes Greener simply sold a complete rifle that had been made by BSA, but other times they added engraving, custom barrel, or special sights. Therefore, you will see Greener examples that do not match those in the standard BSA catalogues. As Kutter pointed out above, none of these sporters were ex-military rifles (not what we would call "sporterized"); they were purpose-built for civilian sale. They have no government markings, but will have commercial proof marks.
The original poster said that the Greener in question has "paperwork"...I am very curious to know what this means. A ledger copy? A bill of sale? If you would be kind of enough to let me know about this, it could be extremely helpful to my research project, and I will certainly acknowledge your assistance.
I am always happy to discuss these Lee Speed rifles and will do my best to evaluate or fix a date to them.
Thanks very much!
Researching Lee-Speed rifles, + shotguns sold by Army & Navy CSL. Please send PM w/questions.
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Hard to say for sure- might need a few more close photos of the receiver-bolt, magazine etc area- This looks like a SMLE in of course .303 cal- (NBD .311") the British High Command insisted on a magazine cut off- a bit like on our 1903 Springfield 30-Gov't-06 rifles- to prevent their "Tommies' from wasting too many rounds was the fable I heard- Greener may have done some sporterizing post 1919- there were sure a lot of Enfield Mk IV and SMLE pattern rifles to sporterize-
The Enfield is a strong action- crappy two-stage trigger which can be slightly modified-- see Dr. Van Van Zwoll's great book on the BA rifles of the world- he does a great job detailing the various Enfield rifles- and our 1917 pattern WRA started to crank out in .303 -but alas, a bit late.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
7.62 x 51 NATO equals .308 Winchester in my book!!
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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