doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Do I Have A Francotte?

It is a 12 gauge SxS straight stock double I picked up in Suffolk England in the early 70's from a farmer who was shooting modern loads.
The 30 inch barrels are Cabrelas Francotte Star Damascus pattern. It was sold by Army Navy CLS in London as that is what is engraved on the top rib. S/N is 15728. There is engraving or checkering on all surfaces but some of both is worn in a few places.
Markings include the 12 C in a diamond and a Crown over a V for both barrels. One barrel is marked Choke. There is no Nitro proof marking.
Both barrels have some pitting near the breech (moderate in one)but the wood and other metal just seems worn but not damaged. One exposed hammer ear is broken off, but the mechanism works.

I have written off to the University of Glascow for any information they may have in their archives, but this forum is so well informed on all things related to shotguns that I was hoping someone could tell me if it is a Francotte and any possible model designation.

First, welcome to the site. I think you'll like the crowd here.

Second, pictures are invaluable in this kind of thing. There is a page on how to post them....

You probably have a Birmingham made gun that used Belgian made barrel tubes . Belgian "damascus" was imported into the UK up untill 1939 . It was cheaper than British made and also the Belgians were producing it long after the British stopped . The way it was made also gave some very fancy patterns that could make a low end gun look more attractive.
I can only say I have never seen an Army and Navy gun that was not of English manufacture and as it bears English proof marks the gun was a least finished in England even if the tubes were sourced from Belgium .

Here are a few pics. I hope thy can help.










The proof marks may not show this well in the light I had.

Pretty worn but a nice looking gun nonetheless, of course I have a weakness for hammer guns with back-action locks and English grips. It'd be great if you could take some better photos, I've found setting the shot up using a tripod or similar and putting your camera on a timer (so you're not holding it when you take the photo) will help quite a bit to get clearer photos. However, I'd guess that Gunman is correct.
Steve

The barrels might have been from Francotte, or might have been a Francotte Damascus pattern. But that does not mean the gun is a Francotte. The Francotte proprietary mark will be found amongst all the other proofmarks on a Francotte-made gun: AF under a crown. Lacking that, it's not a Francotte. Can't tell from your photos, but since you didn't mention it, I'd guess it's not there.

Don't look Belgian to me .

The pics are lousy but thanks for not describing them tthat way. I would need to get a better camera and better lighting should the need for them arise.

I strongly suspect that Gunman is correct. There is no marking of Francotte anywhere and only one small F and the numbers 211 in separate locations on the rib underside. There is one marking I didn't describe. It is Crown over a P where the P curve flows to an almost oval ending under the Crown.

Edited to add that I found this P mark in a lsiting of English proof marks. http://proofmarks.tripod.com/englishproofs.html The 13th and 14th down in the London column apprear on my gun. Note that the notation Not English Made does not appear anywhere on the weapon.

There is only one marking (the Diamond with 12 inside) from this listiong of Belgium proof marks but the same mark is also shown in the English proof marks.
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

Thanks guys. I will be back with more information on the manufacturer, date etc should Glascow University be able to trace the serial number.

NOT ENGLISH would only have been used if the gun had been imported in finished state and proofed prior to sale . A Winchester pump or rifle for example . Had a barreled action in the white been used all you would possibly see would be a Belgian provisional mark plus a full set of British stamps .

Apparently the gun was made in London as it has all the marks shown in the 6th column down at this site.
http://www.shotguns.se/html/london_marks_in_context.html

Still strange that it has those barrels done in the Cabelas Francotte Star pattern that contain a London provisional proof mark (bottom dancing lion).

One other thing is that instead of the mark 12 over 1 mine is 13 over 1.