doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com LC Smith 4E 20 gauge

I am being tempted/seduced/bewitched by an Elsie/Hunter 20 gauge 4E that someone I know wants to sell. I know next to nothing about Elsies and have spent all my time getting to know Foxes, Winchesters and W & C Scotts. From trying to be a quick study, I know/at least think that it is one of 15 pre 1913 20 gauge 4E's. It is is tip top shape with a probable extremely well done redo of the barrels. Hunter One Trigger, gold bar on rib.

It was inherited by this individual so collectivley we have no honest opinion of value. We have been discussing a certain number but neither wants either of us to be taken advantage of. The redo complicates the value proposition.

I could send a few Iphone pics to anyone via pm who would like to offer a very qualified opinion of even a rough range of value. I have seen numbers as high as $20,000 being asked. But anyone can ask anything they want.

Thanks,

Actually redoing the barrels is not a deal breaker as far as value. It would be if the whole gun was refurbished, but 20 ga. 4E's are very rare and in good condition would bring a premium even with the re-blued barrels.
There were only 455 Grade 4's made and only 15 made in 20 ga., might be less with the HOT and ejectors.
All guns from Grade 4 up had the gold bar.

Blue Book of Gun Values, 70% condition, being a 20 ga. with HOT and ejectors is around $12,000 to give you an idea.

David,

Thank you very much for the feedback.

I am trying to figure out how to post the pictures from my Iphone. If I have success I would welcome comments.

PM sent.

Roger

Here are a few photos;

I'm far from an expert on the L.C. Smith gun, but the first thing that strikes me is that the gun may be rebarreled. The rib on the barrels is flat, but the engraved estension of the rib line across the top of the standing breech is concave. That indicates to me that the original barrels for this gun would have had a concave rib. I thumbed through the pre-1913 pictures on the L.C. Smith Collectors Association web site and the guns shown had concave (hollow) ribs. I know such a situation is a tell tale sign on Parker Bros. doubles. I'd want to see what a letter from the LCSCA has to say for that serial number.

Here's a 4E in 12g to compare to:

http://kevinsguns.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=72_63&product_id=318

Colors look off to me, but it may be the pics (or I may just be wrong).

OWD

That's good advice. I appreciate you pointing that out. From memory though I believe both the barrel flats and the water table are serialed to the gun.

Like I said, Smith's are not my thing so I will be treading cautiously.

If the barrels were replaced at the factory and serial numbered to the gun, it is still a $12,000 gun in 70% condition. This gun looks in a higher percentage from what is shown, more pictures of forend and stock would help.
If this was sent back later to have the barrels replaced with another set, then there is usually a 2 stamped on the barrels for-end hanger, and would usually have a spare for-end also stamped with a 2.

An extra set of barrels at the time the gun was made were half the price of the gun.
From a 1923 Parts and Repair list, extra set of barrels for Eagle E, Pigeon E and 4E were $102.00, and $25.00 for the forend complete.

As for the colors, after all this time at least it still has them.

From what I can see of the one side plate connecting screw, this gun wasn't tampered with much and if the locks were removed it was by someone with experience.

Really need more pics to evaluate that gun; but on a custom order gun like this 4E, the customer could certainly specify, and Hunter Arms would provide, his preference for a flat or concave rib. If there are concerns that the barrels may have been replaced, I suggest you post additional pics of the barrel flats and water table; as well as the underside of the fore iron and fore iron hanger lug. I also suggest you post more detailed pics of this gun; for if the balance of the gun is in as high original condition as it appears the gun may be from the two photos above, it is an even rarer gun. I can only recall having seen two other 4E 20-bores in my lifetime; one of which had been used a lot and to my thinking would be classed as a shooter grade (the old codger with the gun had it way over-priced at $20K!). As to its value I have no idea; but again, the gun is very rare and even more so if it truly is in as high an original condition as the photos make it appear to be; and if it is, it would fetch a premium from a Smith collector.

If the gun had been ordered new with a flat rib, the corresponding area in line with the rib across the top of the standing breech would have been flat.

I could certainly speculate that the gun could have originally started life as a Damascus barrel 16-gauge and then was returned to Hunter Arms Co. to be rebarreled in fluid steel as a 20-gauge. I know of a very high grade Parker Bros. that started life as a Damascus barrel 0-frame 16-gauge and was later rebarreled in fluid steel as a 20-gauge, and still later, in the Remington era, got a set of fluid steel 28-gauge barrels. Lots of things could have happened to these old guns in the past 100 years or so.

Will be interesting to see this story unfold.