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Joined: Sep 2012
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I hasve a SxS 16 gauge that I am needing some help researching. It looks to me that all numbers match. I can see some visible wear but for the most part it looks relatively in good condition.
It is labled a Firma Franz Kettner Koln. I have been doing research and found that it is a 16 gauge and is a European shotgun. I have not been able to find much more info than this, other than the history of this particular individual who made it.
This forum has shown to be extremely knowledgable with european pre war guns and I hope that there is someone that has seen this particular gun or guns similar to itself.
I have added some pictures to help as much as possible. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5436/img0305dg.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7874/img0304el.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/140/img0303ljc.jpg
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7273/img0302jr.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/6647/img0301pmg.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4564/img0300jd.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6060/img0299cl.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7659/img0298n.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8901/img0296zb.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1108/img0295wq.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/632/img0294tk.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1985/img0293u.jpg
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2225/img0292am.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6769/img0290qz.jpg
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2079/img0288ta.jpg
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9684/img0287krq.jpg
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4183/img0286cm.jpg

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It's Belgian sourced pre-1924 and may have been for a client outside of Germany as I don't see any German proofmarks.



The Franz Kettner for whom the Frank Kettner gunshop in Köln was named was born in 1808 and more than likely became a master gunsmith in 1834 as he founded the business on May 15th 1835. His walk-about must have taken him to distant master gunsmiths and that was what added a few years to the typical time for a gunsmith to acquire their master sheepskin. His father, Karl Franz Josef Kettner, was a top/head forester and his brother was businessman Eduard Kettner and he was born 3 years after Franz in 1811. Master gunsmith Franz Kettner had a son named Franz Kettner as well as a grandson named Franz Kettner and the next master gunsmith heir was named Eduard Franz Kettner who was born 100 years after Franz Kettner in 1908, more than likely became a master gunsmith during tough times circa 1932 and expired in 2006. I'm sure each and all passed thru several of the Suhl gunsmith shops on their respective walkabouts. Franz Otto Julius Kettner, son of Eduard Kettner and nephew of Franz Kettner, was only listed as a businessman as I can find, but Axel Pantermühl of Germany and contributor/member of the GGCA( http://www.germanguns.com ) notes that Franz Otto Julius Kettner worked a stint at Christan Sturm, who I would guess to be the son of Wolfgang Heinrich Sturm(Daniel Sturm was also a master) who didn't Ghee-Haw with Sauer in the mid 1830s and it may have been the fact that Sauer & Ferdinand Spangenberg had buddied up but by the time Franz Otto Julius Kettner was born in 1852 Sauer & Sturm had had some sort of a come to Jesus meeting and resolved their differences. I'd guess the time period to be in the 1870s and Franz Otto Julius Kettner may have also worked at the Sauer facility, as well as others in Suhl. July 23rd of 1884 witnessed the founding of the Eduard Kettner firm and there had to be a master gunsmith on staff and it may have been one of the Franz Kettners because some family centered dispute led to stiff competition between the Kettner klan of Köln. Eduard Kettner advertised as Gewehrfabrik in Köln a. Rh.(on Rhine River) und Suhl i.(in) Th.(Thuringia) which is sort of deceiving as Suhl was sourced, many times it was Bernhard Merkel( I think him to be a huge filed frame or example in the white source for almost all non-Suhl retailers) as well as the Sturm folks, who was also sourced by Franz Kettner and during WWI in 1916 Sturm's widow was managing the company and taking orders. I've wondered for some time with the rules/guidelines of the gun maker's guild if widow was were allowed to continue their husband's business without their being a master gunsmith on staff. This seems to be the case. Anyway, about 1920, Franz Kettner absorbed/purchased Sturm's widow's firm and expanded and the firm employed the following craftsmen:
A dozen actioners, a couple of engravers(this is the main difference in Eduard & Franz Kettner examples) and a few less than a 1/2 dozen stockers. 5 years later Eduard Kettner sold his business to Dornheim and the bombing on June 30th, 1943 pretty much leveled everything sending Franz to Suhl for the remainder of the war. Post WWII he had a small shop and supplied examples to BuHaG. In 1971 Kettner heirs began opening stores with Hemer followed by Ratingen, Hamburg, Münster(?), Oldenburg and later Vienna. I think Kettner went under but someone has started anew. By the way the use/re-use of the same first name is what really complicates retracing the history of gunmakers.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0d0f3c334db6f22

Amtlich Vierfach Geprüft und Eingeschossen mit Stärkster ladung Rauchlosen Pulvers
Advertising that notes a quad proof

Czech version - Uredne Ctyrnasobne Zkousena a Nastrelena Nejsilnejsim Nabojem Bezdũmného Prachu



Kind Regards,

Raimey
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It's ole Belgian shoty with demiblock barrels. If I recall correctly Herr Piper or Pieper was first one to use this barrel jointing method producing assembly line SxS shotguns late in 19th century. Assuming good mechanical order, enough barrel thickness, no pitting you will need low pressure custom loads to use that gun. I luv the "poison ivy" wine decoration it is quite unique.

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Maybe it is some for of Wetzlaub. Jäger are you still reading Double Gun Journal?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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How 'bout that AcH: you are Nr. 20000. You should get a prize?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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Thanks to both quick response and the great info. I plan to have the barrels inspected before attempting to shoot. Visually the barrels look to be in great condition. No pitting or cracks. I did notice that the right hammer seems to be a little loose. It also looks that my father previously tried to tighten and scared up the screw. I have a good friend that said he could aquire custom loads. Everything feels very tight and overall looks to be in great condition.
Would anyone happen to know what the value of this gun would be? My father traded me this gun a 9mm browning and also a very nice condition SKS for a Browning Light 12. I think I got the better deal but he did not know much about the gun either. wink

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
How 'bout that AcH: you are Nr. 20000. You should get a prize?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse



Wow!!! feels pretty good to be #20000. grin

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Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Maybe it is some for of Wetzlaub. Jäger are you still reading Double Gun Journal?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


I haven't looked at double gun magazine in months. I'm just working from memory of short article in Sporting Gun where they had picture of ole' Henri gun with damascus barrels fluid steel chamber area and end of barrels where choke taper is located. The barrels of that gun were true "Oreo Cookie design" with white filling being damascus portion. I sold most of my gun library and all guns except one a Glock pistol. Best. PJ

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Well I think I have found the exact age of the gun. I was able to locate a proof mark dating sheet for Belgian damascus barrels. Based on the proof marks on my gun it is 1924. There are several proof marks that ran 1924 to present but only a couple on the barrel that were used until exactly 1924.

Knowing the age of the gun is there anyone that would know, roughly, the value of this gun? If it is valuable I will give it back to my father. Thanks for the help.

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NITRO QUATRE VERROUS


Looks like there might have been a Portuguese version??

Amtlich Vierfach Geprüft und Eingeschossen mit Stärkster ladung Rauchlosen Pulvers

Czech version - Uredne Ctyrnasobne Zkousena a Nastrelena Nejsilnejsim Nabojem Bezdũmného Prachu

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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