doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The sharing of engravers- SAC and Lefever

Didn't want to hijack the SAC A-1 thread.
Just thought that I'd show a few pictures that explain some of my thoughts on engravers in the middle New York area.
Personally, I believe that many of the engravers were shared in the area and some times, high grade guns travelled some distance to be engraved.
No doubt, it's obvious that the same situation existed in other areas.
Other than observation, it's hard to prove much as the majority of the guns are unsigned and the lack of documentation from the factories.

So, here is a quick comparison between a Lefever and an early Syracuse Arms.
Sorry for the poor pictures.











It also would not be hard to draw some other comparisons with other makers in the area.

I don't really have a question, but would appreciate any comments, observations, theories, and discussion on early engravers.

Lyman C. Smith himself in Syracuse, N.Y. hired the best engravers to engrave his guns. The best at the time were A.E. Spangler, his brother Wilton and Jacob Glahn.
Spanglers' dogs are some of the best done.

The snipe pictures and the trigger guard engravings look like Jacob Glahn.

When L.C. sold the gun works to John Hunter in 1899, the Spanglers and Jacob Glahn and his three sons went to Fulton. His sons then went on to engrave for others.

I have seen Spangler's name on an Optimus Grade and Glahn's on another LeFever.
These engravers also worked on the side for other gun companies as you have stated.
Jacob Glahn

A.E. Spangler Optimus Grade 10 ga. presented to President Benjamin Harrison

A3 L.C. Smith, most likely Spangler.


Forgot to add this Quality 7 Syracuse L.C. Smith circa 1887. Most likely Spangler.

With all due respect David, I don't believe that A3 lock plate to be Spangler's work at all; I believe that work to be Kraus. I think I'm correct when I state that A.E. Kraus had already become head of the Hunter Arms engraving shop by the time the A3 Grade was introduced in 1895; and although there are some differences in the early A3 engraving patterns, the above lock plate is the later variation and would almost certainly be Kraus's work.

As to SAC engravers, I've found no evidence that SAC had an in-house engraving department; and have in fact, found very little information pertaining to SAC engravers at all. The only information I can recall at all is from the Steel Canvas book by Wilson in which he writes that SAC engraving was done by members of the Glahn family; and he shows a picture of a highly engraved SAC frame found in the surviving Glahn family records. He specifically names the family member thought to have done most of the engraving for SAC, and I can't recall from memory that individuals name; but Wilson also mentioned that this individual had engraved a SAC gun for Teddy Roosevelt (I'd sure like to see that piece!).
From my research, I believe that SAC subbed-out their engraving jobs; and the company apparently delivered batches of frames to the engraver with grade/coverage instructions, as engraved examples are often found in serial number blocks (and I've found several examples of consecutively numbered high grades). The most variation I've seen as regards engraving coverage in SAC guns has been with the early HOLLENBECK marked SAC guns with a Grade D frame stamp; and the most striking examples were consecutively numbered. One gun remains the most highly engraved SAC gun I've ever seen, and which was featured in a DGJ article some years ago; while the other D Grade stamped example had very little more engraving (line and scroll) than an early Grade 1, and remains the only Grade D SAC gun I've seen with no game scenes (other than an embellished Grade 3 that had been over-stamped "D").

Tom, you are correct about Kraus doing the A3 and you know who's it is.
Jacob Glahn died in 1892 only spending 3 years with Hunter Arms Co. Not sure when the Spangle's left, but I seem to remember seeing their names in a who's who list in Futon after 1892.
I know that Glahn and the Spangler's did work for other companies like LeFever and SAC.

Kraus's work is good but looking at the setters, in my opinion A.E. Spangler's is better. I believe Wilson said the same.

Correction, Jacob Glahn Sr. died in 1902.

Has anyone ever determined the source or purpose of the step in the rear section of those sidelocks...have seen it on some european guns as well. Steve

Just an added touch to give it that "stepped" appearance. The wood where this intersected was also stepped.

Personally, I don't believe it had a purpose, other than esthetics. I have seen them on American made muzzleloading rifles dating back into the 1700s. In my opinion they add character and beauty to a lock plate, and obviously require more filing when building the gun.

SRH

The step in the rear of the lock plate narrows the stock wrist a tiny bit. But, I agree it is primarily an esthetic feature.