doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Marked SB &Co T

I should know the answer to this from Dr. Drew's magnificent work but I can't remember. The Ithaca I recently purchased through Mark Larson carries the tube marking of SB Co T. So- is it Sanderson Brothers or S Buckly??? What might be the significance of the T?? BTW, it is a 1928 gun.

Samuel Buckley served on the Birmingham Proof House Committee and in 1863 was one of the officers in the British Small Arms Co. He later establish a branch office in Detroit. Guns produced by William Powell in the 1860s exist marked Samuel Buckley & Co. Hammer guns and Anson & Deeley patent BLNEs were imported into the US by J. Palmer O'Neal of Pittsburg, PA in the 1880's.
See The Double Gun Journal Vol. 22 Issue 3, 2011
The American Exporter�s Export Trade Directory of 1915 listed Samuel Buckley & Co. as �chiefly importers� with offices at 16 East 33rd St., New York, 2 Soho Square, London and Liege, Belgium. Samuel Buckley & Co., Manhattan incorporated in July 1921.
Per Harry Howland regarding c. 1920 Ithaca Gun Co. barrels -
"We were getting all our barrels forged, rough drilled and rough turned from Belgium. We were purchasing them from either Samuel Buckley & Co. or from J. Riga & Co. and it was not until two or three years later that we began purchasing those barrels from the Flannery Bolt Co."

The S.B. & Co. mark of Sanderson Bros. & Co. (in a slightly different font) is found on Smith, Ithaca Flues & NID, and N.R. Davis & Sons shotguns.
Dudley G. Gautier was president of the Philadelphia Steel & Forging Co. and D.G. Gautier & Co. was an agent for both Sanderson Brothers & Co. and Tacony Iron Works (1881-1910) of Philadelphia.
SO, it is my unconfirmed (and without invoices or internal co. documents likely unconfirmable) opinion that the SB&Co T and G are for Tacony and Gautier
Images of the marks about 1/2 way down here
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=17ixogftgITEblNUWtmFBv96ZvgjK6eFell8GsAWd-KI

Its Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, not Pittsburg Pennsylvania. They are very proud of that 'H'

FINALLY found documentation of the date of the founding of Crucible Steel Co. of American, and the works that were combined to form the company

13 companies formed Crucible Steel Co. of America July 21, 1900, with headquarters in Pittsburgh. http://www.crucibleservice.com/history.aspx

Crucible Steel Co. of America was a consolidation of the following companies
https://books.google.com/books?id=xdk5AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg
Aliquippa Steel Co.
Anderson, Du Puy & Co.
Benj. Atha & Illingworth Co.
Beaver Falls Steel Works
Canton Steel Works
Cayuga Tool Steel Works
Consumers� Heating Co.
Crescent Steel Works
Cumberland Steel & Tin Plate Co.
Howe, Brown & Co.
La Belle Steel Works
Park Steel Works
Sanderson Bros. Steel
Singer, Nimick & Co.
Spaulding & Jennings Co.

Norwalk Steel Co. was incorporated by Crucible in 1910
In 1911, Midland Steel Co. was purchased and became Pittsburgh Crucible Steel Co.

In addition to Sanderson Bros. Steel Works in Syracuse, New York, Crucible operated the following steel works in 1902.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2yYqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA331&lpg
Pennsylvania
Aluquippa Steel Works
Beaver Falls Steel Works
Black Diamond Steel Works
Crescent Steel Works
Howe, Brown & Co. Works
La Belle Steel Works
Pittsburgh Steel Works
Singer, Nimick & Co. Works
New Jersey
Atha Steel Co.
West Bergen Steel Works

I still don't think any of them made the "rough forged barrel tubes", but did provide the AISI 1020 action forgings. Sad thinking about what has become of the steel industry in the U.S.

Treb, FWIW-Before a committee in 1911 made it official, Pittsburgh was often spelled "Pittsburg." I have an old muzzle loader marked J. H. Johnson, Pittsburg, Pa.
Dr, Drew, Thank you for your significant contributions to this board and the advancement of knowledge.

Good point Walt.

Are all barrels on American doubles marked as to where the steel originated from? Are all Ithaca shotguns marked?

Treb, Can't talk for all American doubles but many Ithaca barrels are. Sometimes they are struck off.

My grade 2- mfg. 1926 has unmarked barrels on the top of both barrel breech areas. Has the LLH markings on the flats however. SN 442115 gauge 30" marked 4 and 4 chokes.. However, it patterns with AA trap loads like about mod. and imp. mod--great shooting NID Ithaca indeed.

Pittsburg or Pittsburgh-- Machts Nicht- but look at how many ignorant "dealers" list their Ithaca shotguns as "Ithica" and some do not seem to know, or care to learn I guess, the difference between the Flues Ithaca guns, and the later NID Ithaca guns.

Yea, but as Walt pointed out it was "Pittsburg" for a long while. So I stand corrected.

Francis:

Forward those images to me of the HHG markings so I can post them.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse