doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Unidentified Belgian Gunmaker

I�ve just acquired a sidelock Belgian 16 sxs and need some help identifying the maker.

The watertable has the *S, P.V. and the Perron, so these marks are easily understood.

The barrels also have a *K which indicates another inspector...have looked these up. Barrels are also both marked 16.9 choke 16.8. And �Importe de Belgique�; NL.

From the inspectors� marks, *K for Delsaux, Walthere, *S for Daenen, Charles and an apparent rho, P, on the watertable, I�m guessing a gun produced ca. 1958.

On top of the barrels it is marked �St. Hubert� and then spaced apart �Briard� , and on the top of the left barrel, �Coulommiers�, a town west of Paris in the heart of the La Brie region. The St. Hubert is probably the (Belgian?) name of the model of the gun, after the patron saint of hunting.

Briard may have been the importer (lots of uses of that name in Coulommiers, even a restaurant and a cement company as well as the paper, Le Pays Briard, today), as Coulommiers is in the region of La Brie. Briard was perhaps added to the model as a regional identification since Briard seems to be a strong regional identifier there in an agricultural region that might have (or had) good bird hunting. Coulommiers also appears to be known for its brie, le brie de Coulommiers! A Briard is also an old French breed of sheep herding dogs, but I don�t think this is a reference to them.

The gun has only edge decoration on the once case hardened sidelocks, but has fences and oak leaf carving on the action. Moderate engraving on the underside.

So I�m left believing that this is possibly a Liege made middle range shotgun ordered by and exported to a dealer in Coulommiers, France, with the local marking of Briard (like the Crescents in the US perhaps) identifying it as a gun for the local region, La Brie, thus a Briard. Then it somehow made its way eventually to the US.

Always fun to track down the markings on these guns and learned a bit more about a nice little region of France too. The only still puzzling thing about the gun is that there is an NL, probably the maker�s mark but I can�t find who it is, on the barrels.

So, hoping that one of the sages on this site know who NL was, as you did when I asked about LC a couple of years ago!

Possibly
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...%20cie%20gb.htm

Precursor 1906-1925
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20lajot%20gb.htm

You are confident about the 'rho'?

Yes, the rho appears under the *S twice on the barrels so pretty confident of that now. Sequence of markings under left barrel is: weight,rho, *S, PV, Crown ELG *, 16/70 in an oval, and the same minus barrel weight under the right.

Should have mentioned it's marked 16/70 which makes it a bit more modern, not that I will shoot 70mm shells in it addicted as I am to 65mm reloads. Barrel weight is marked 1 k 272, and if my scale is right the gun comes in at 5.25 lbs., which for me is even more reason to use low pressure shells in it.

The PV mark is a Lion Rampant in outline over the PV, which makes it before 1959 I believe, but that isn't necessarily definitive for dating.

My choke gauges are elsewhere so can't check to see if the chokes are original but they look externally pretty close with the right a tad more open? I'd assume something like IM and Full or Full and Full, but that remains to be seen. Bit too tight for my taste and bird gunning at this point, but could work for ducks with an ITX spreader load in the right barrel.

Someone took the stock mount for the sling off so will replace that as I like slings and the wooden cheek pads...guess that's why I have a number of European doubles.

Are there any numbers in front of the barrel flats that could be bore and choke diameter in MM? You'll often find them on Belgian guns.

Quite a few of the Belgian date codes can be a bit tricky to decipher. The rho can sometimes be confused with a script p (1937). But in any case, you're relatively modern (post-1924) with the 16/70. 5.25 is definitely on the light side for a 16. And even though France had a thriving gun industry of its own, not at all unusual to run across Belgian imports that were sold there.

Yes, seems very light indeed for a 16. I'm pretty sure it's a rho as it's kind of elongated and both are identical.

There is the "16.9 choke 16.8" on the barrels which I'm assuming are the bore and choke measurements in MM.

It has the Anson release on the forearm which I hadn't mentioned.

Seems probable to me that it was a special order for a local distributor in Coulommiers and named "Briard". possibly from Nicolas Lajot if that group was still in business then.

This is a very good reason to use light recoiling loads, this does not of itself necessarily mean Low Pressure.
Due to varying burning rates of powders pressure is not directly related to recoil. Charge weight & velocity determine recoil.

Yes, 2-piper you're right about that, and I load relatively low charge weight at moderate velocities. Doesn't seem to affect my bird bag but certainly makes certain older doubles a lot more fun to shoot!

Just looked at my 28 ga. Original Diana hammer gun which has barrels weighing 1 k 269, so this 16 is awfully light in the barrels!

"St Hubert Briard" would be a most obvious name for a gun retailing business based in Coulommiers.
Coulommiers is smack dab in the middle of the Brie region (known for the cheeses from Meaux, Montereau, Melun and Coulommiers (my personal favorite but I digress)), St Hubert is of course the Hunters' patron saint, and a Briard is an inhabitant of the Brie region.

However, this does not say who made this gun. NL is indeed the initials of Nicolas Lajot, one of my favorite maker, but pictures would greatly help as it is not a sure thing whatsoever.
Good luck with this!
WC-

Yes, will post some pictures in a couple of weeks as we're off to Croatia today...no fishing or hunting, regretfully.

I have a 16 ga belgian SXS with barrels marked 1k 268, gun weighs 5.8 lbs