doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com How to verify an original vintage gun?

My local shop has quite a few old bangers but after close inspection I'd swear that many of them had refinished stocks or re-done case colors.
What are some of the telltale signs of a re-do? I'm only interested in original material that is 80% or better. How to separate the wheat from the chaff?

Study examples that are original, paying close attention to the details; read everything you can about the manufacturer and the guns; talk to other collectors; and after you have done all of that, pay attention to your gut.

Look at the screws first. If they have been buggered up the gun has been messed with. Look at the details. Most refinished guns will have been polished too much and will have engraving, lettering and any sharp lines or edges rounded off of smoothed too much. Factory is crisp, refinished is fuzzy.

Colors are easy to figure out. They have to look right. Just look at a few hundred real guns and you will spot most recased color from across the room.

Almost all stocks have suffered from a touch up with Trueoil at the hands of an owner or gunsmith. As long as they did not put it on too heavy no major problem.

If you are looking at guns as an investment then you are barking up the wrong tree. Long term they migh hold their value but they are not great investments. Buy guns you like to hold, shoot and enjoy them. The world has enough closet queens already.

To Jay: two out of three isn't bad. JL

I replaced all the screws in a Super Pigeon Grade Model 12 a few years ago that were really boogered up because the older gentleman I bought it from had changed the wood and bingo bango-new gun. Can anyone really tell if that 60 year old CC has been redone if the gun has been used a lot and the newer CC is worn off a little too? Or if a gun was reblued back in the 70s and has been used and worn all this time? I for one am really getting tired of someone looking at a gun of mine and the first they say is, "this has been refinished." Sometimes it is obvious if the metal is worn badly and it has new wood or vice versa. But it is pretty hard to tell a lot of times. I also just sold a cased 1960 Superposed two barrel set and when one guy looked at it the first thing he tried to tell me was the wood had been redone. :rolleyes: So, does it really matter if someone sent a gun back to the factory to have it gone over and it doesn't have the same red oil on it that was there the day it was made? And how can anyone really tell if an odd piece wasn't special ordered? If you like the gun and it has the original wood, I don't think it really matters if someone redid something minor. If you like it and it is original except for something minor like rebluing or refinishing, what the heck. Buy it. You might regret later on that you didn't and you could have made it the way you like it.

I have trouble with re-done case color hardening because most of the ones I've seen look awful. Few can match the subtle yet colorful originals. Most of the re-do's are too much. I'd prefer next to nothing as opposed to a light show.

Assuming it was done professionally years ago (no excessive wood/metal removal, etc), I CAN'T tell. Now, with places like Turnbull Restorations, Andy's Custon Shop, Galazan,.... it will be even harder in the future, so better join the post Y2K 'American Classic Gun Rush'now!

I know what Jimmy means about odd pieces. There are custom specs and rarities. I saw a four-digi Browning Super at Cabellas west of Allentown today prior to a pheasant hunt with a small-farm operater near there. Not in the gunroom but out there with the junk. Had the Herstal address rather than Morgan or St. Louis, cheekpiece stock, anti-crossfire rib, and the fattest endplate bt forend I've ever seen. This thing looked like it had pontoons on the sides and must have been four inches wide. I haven't seen it in Schwing's book. Am I to imagine that it isn't factory? I don't think so. I've got a 1918 grade 4 Flues coming soon. It has a swamped rib with a ramp at the breech. Should I have passed on it because it doesn't quite meet my standard-issue expectations based on the limits of my sub-standard issue experience. Here I'm not so sure. I believe it was eightbore who said recently that we should just be happy to be shooting them and quit worrying that we won't all make the big score and find something we can sell for six times what we gave and 45 times what it's worth.

jack

Never much cared for thinking profit on resale, never really bargain hunted either.
I've just wanted a fair deal for my money, I'm not in the business.
The vintage Americans are a risky game; the bigger the prize, the better chance you have in taking it in the chops.
Any Parker over DHE grade, I'd want Steven Hawkings to check-out for me.

The issue is in market value. Americana guns have most of their value in original condition. Collectors prize originality. "Origanility" can be difficult to prove/disprove. This is now street knowledge. SOooooo, both buyers and sellers live in fear of somebody's voodoo repair/restoration puttin' the hoodoo on their wallets. I don't see any real solution to this issue.

Any money spent above utility value of a gun makes you that much a collector. Nuttin' wrong with that as long as you admit it to yourself and face up the the consequences. You require education/information. And, you need a trustworthy mentor. One of the best things you can do is buy yourself a good example of an OE gun and use it as a benchmark for future purchases.

An older, very well done restoration is very hard to be sure of and will likely lead to a debate. Mostly, you have to look at enough guns to develop a "gut feel" for what is original and what is aftermarket. Go to a lot of gunshows without your wallet. The probabilities of missing the bargain of a lifetime are a lot lower than the probabilities of making an unwise purchase. Research, research, research. Continuous research! Other than that, good luck!