doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Anyone Familiar with a 9.3x58R Sauer Cartridge

Looks like a Sauer/S&S 9×58–58.5R type, those old German markings (118.35) confuse. Common practice is to form brass from 9.3×72R or long 38-55 cases and fire-form after annealing.
Slug the bore and/or do a chamber cast to confirm bullet diameter and case shape before making brass. Start loads very light (work up with IMR 4198/4895 or similar, watch for pressure signs) and have a gunsmith check headspace if unsure.

Der Ami,

Thank you. I shoot 360EX and a 9.3x57R/360 (only difference is the 360EX has a thinner rim).

For the 360EX, I use 22 gr of IMR 4198 and bullets between 158 gr and 180 gr. My Lancaster likes 0.359" - 360" 158 gr cast bullets and my Henry likes 0.367" 177gr HC bullets and 180 gr HC GC bullets. My Reilly 9.3x57R has some mispires when I use thin rim brass. Buffalo Arms used to have 9.3x57R brass with a 0.060" rim but have been out of stock for over 2 years.

My DR which I now believe is a 9.3x58.5r S&S has a 0.355" bore and should shoot 0.356" HC GC bullets. I have some 180 gr HC GC bullets that I will swage to 0.356" and load with 22 gr IMR 4198 and see how it shoots. The brass was cut down 9.3x72R brass that had the neck area reduced in 8x58.5r S&S dies, annealed, and fireformed. I will seat the bullets with 360EX dies.

Hopefully the loaded ammo fits the rifle (for me, an issue), fires fine, and groups. Will check the velocity as I will be looking for 1700 fps. Is that a reasonable velocity?

I will be looking for 8x58.5r S&S brass that I can fireform into 9.3x58.5r brass. (From my web search, the 9.xX58.5r S&S brass isn't available but the 8x58.5r is sometimes available.)

Mike, Thanks for your reply.

I agree that perhaps my DR caliber should be called a 9x58.5r S&S.

By the same vien, my kipplauf is really a 9.1x72r based on a "D" and not "E" case - it will not chamber commercial 9.3x72R ammo. Well the case I use is a 9.3x72r with the head reduced slightly and shoots a 0.359" bullet.

For my 9x58.5r S&S, I have 10 cases made from Norma 9.3x72R brass loaded with 180gr HC GC swaged 0.356" bullets. I will shoot those this week, just for functioning and velocity check. If it looks like it regulates and have ~1700 fps. I will take that rifle deer hunting. (North Georgia deer are not really large).

For the Reilly, I might try 375 Win brass which I have. It is slightly shorter (2.02") than 38/55 (2.085") which is shorter than the 9.3x57/360 (2.25").

I may also try lengthening the .375 Win brass by silver soldering a thin wall tube over the case and then sizing that in a 360 EX reloading die. I have done that before with other cases. It is quite a bit of work. If the parent case isn't shortened, it limits the bullet seating depth.

851c,
When I speak of using 38-55 cases, I mean original length cases which were 2.125-130" long. A few years ago, there was a "run" of 38-55 ammo for a commemorative rifle and they used 30-30 length (2.085") cases, for convenience. Since then, common 38-55 cases have been the shorter length. However, Starline makes both length cases and refer to the original length ones as "long". A recent check "online" indicates that the longer cases are available now (they are "seasonal"). I got my first 9.3x72R from a friend that had tried making cases by soldering cut-off 38 special case bodies to necked up 30-30 cases. He was very competent but was unable to make the idea work to his satisfaction. He used soft solder, and silver solder would take enough heat that it is less likely to be successful. If you have a .375 Win. rifle, you might be better off to save your cases for it and use fireformed 30-30 cases for the Reilly if you can't use long 38-55 or 9.3x72R cases; .375 Win. cases are not plentiful either. Some people with rifles chambered for 9.3x72R "D" form are able to use "N' (normalized) form commercial ammo by sizing it slightly in a 38-55 file/trim die or sizing die (the type that has the decapping stem in a bushing large enough that when removed will allow the cartridge to pass through). The cartridges only need to be sized enough to chamber. Once fired in a "D" form chamber, the cases can be reloaded in normal 9.3x72R dies. FWIW, chambering to "N" form from "D" form never required reproofing the rifle.
You mentioned that North Georgia deer are not really large, I take from that you live in North Georgia. What part? I have family that live in various north Georgia areas.
Mike

Mike,

I hunt in Norman Park, Hurd County and on Berry College. I live in metro Atlanta.

What part of east Alabama do you live? I had cousins that lived in Montgomery (I spent a couple of summers there) and have family that live in the Mobile/Spring Hill area.

After trying a 375W sized with a 360EX die and it reliably fires, I will look fir long 38/55 brass.

There are low temp "silver" solder that many gunsmiths use and that is what I have. The true 95% silver solder requires very high temperture and, as you comment, is unsuitable for brass exrension.

Are you planning to shoot in the Spring Rook, Sporting, & Double Rifle match at ORSA?

851c,
I live in the middle of Chambers County. If you go from Atlanta to either Montgomery or Mobile on I 85, the first Alabama exit you pass is 12 miles from my house. My family that lives in North Ga. lives considerably north of Atlanta. On the other hand, one of my grandsons' lives close to Mobile, on the east side of the bay. No, I'm not going to the match at ORSA, I can't shoot standing anymore and can only shoot from a bench or ground blind. I miss quail hunting most of all. Since Starline has the long 38-55 in stock now, i'll be surprised if you can't find some in Atlanta (the minimum they will sell to an individual is 250 cases/$180).
Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your reply. Too bad we don't live closer as it would be fun to get together to shoot.

On ORSA, Rick may be willing to let you shoot from a chair. It has been done before. Anyway, it is interesting to talk to other enthusiast of nice vintage guns. For me, seeing the match, interesting rifles, and talking to vintage gun enthusiast was worth the drive.

You would think that in a city the size of Atlanta, there would be several good sources of reloading supplies, but I get most of my supplies by on-line ordering. I have not be able to find any IMR 4198 locally except from another shooter that was downsizing his reloading. The big box stores have some reloading supplies as does Outdoor Adventures. Georgia Arms has more supplies but apparently were hurt by a fire. Deer Creek in Kennesaw may have 38/55 and I will check with them.

On the subject of my 9x58.5r S&S, the gun shot well. I was concerned about split brass as I had lost 9.3x82r and 8x58.5R S&S brass due to lateral splits that really show up when the brass is cleaned. I set the brass in 1/2" of water and annealed the whole body and experienced no wasted brass. Unfortunately, my Garmin wasn't charged but plan on shooting at River Bend in a week or so and will check velocity then. Of course, I am really looking for accuracy - both barrels regulating @ 50 yds. My load is 22 gr of IMR 4198 which is 44% of a 50 gr 2F BP load which seems reasonable.

Roy

Roy,
I even stopped going to gun shows with my buddies. The last time I went I was only halfway around when the rest of them were ready to go. This was even with my rolling walker. Before I retired, I lived in Columbus and set up at every gunshow. I mostly visited with old friends and watched for deals. I never sold enough to cover costs, but since I didn't have Motel bills and only ate one meal/day away from home it was worth the cost to have somewhere to sit both days. I mostly setup next to a good friend and when he walked around, I watched the tables and when I was gone, he watched. I always had a good time and found good deals. Sadly, Agent Orange got my Columbus buddy and this year one of my main local friends. I have good memories though. If you have a table, pretty often people sell their dad's reloading tools and components. I've often gotten good deals on powder and bullets and even some equipment sometimes. Twenty-year-old prices are usually pretty good.
Now I'm mostly trying to finish up projects and gather enough tools for my grandsons and great grandsons to have shops. If they lived closer, I could teach them, but they don't. Now, I will have to give them directions how to make cased and bullets for the guns I will leave them. This includes the conversion factors from Black powder to 4198 from Cordite to 4895 and from R5 to VV140 or 4895 and how/why to anneal the cases they make for those guns. This is obviously second nature to you, but someone will have to teach them.
Years from now, if someone needs help; I ask that you help them, you never know whose grandson or great grandson he will be.
Mike

Mike.

Times have changed. When we moved to Georgia, there was a true gun collector's association that put on nice gun shows. Today, the interest in guns has changed (evolved) to modern guns and assorted items for which I am no interested. The only things I have found interesting are reloading supplies (powder & primers) and, every now and then, someone shows up with a 50 - 75 year old gun. Even the Birmingham show has changed from a large, downtown show with numerous vintage guns to a much smaller show very few neat guns.

But, years ago, there were not forums like this so maybe all is well. Of course, I would like to go to a gun show with vintage sporting firearms.