doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com The pinfire game gun

Ah, I was hoping something like that would turn up. Very interesting! I wonder when they were first offered. I’ll try looking in The Field adverts for a date.

Steve, I did some research on Eley's first pin-fire shells as part to the Reilly history (chapter VII; 42) on p. 94, with footnotes posted on p.84 of the Reilly line):

This is the first reference I found to Eley makingbreech loading shells: 02 Jan 1858, “The Field”. 1st known ad for Eley breech loading shells – although whether these were for shotguns is not clear.


First specific reference to pin-fire shotgun shells: 27 March 1858,”The Field”


Early Eley cartridges received bad reviews per letters to the Field. The author urged Lang, Reilly, or Blanch to import hulls from France
. . . . . . . . . .27 Nov 1858 “The Field”


EM Reilly complained about hide-bound practices of the UK cartridge establishment and the inability of UK ammunition makers to manufacture pin-fire shells.
. . . . . . . . . .26 Dec 1857, “The Field”


I believe Eley continued making pin-fire cartridges up until the 1900's.

The earliest case Reilly case label mentioning Eley and Schultz powers is 28189, (1886) - however, believe this label was added post 1904 after the move to 295 Oxford Street. The earliest confirmed label (with 277 as the address would be 33635 (1893) (this still seems early).

Thanks, Gene, very useful. The question I'm trying to answer is when some pin-fire cartridges began being loaded with nitrocellulose gun-cotton instead of black powder. There may have been some sources of gun-cotton very early on, with some gunmakers offering to load primed hulls (of English or French origin) with the new powders at the request of clients, as alluded to by Mr Norton. It may well be that Thomas Prentice & Co. was the first cartridge firm to offer commercial ready-made gun-cotton cartridges, in 1863; Schultze’s semi-smokeless powder became available in 1865 or 1865. "Dixon's gun-cloth" was available from the gun-wadding manufacturer Bussey Smith & Co. (George Gibson Bussey) from at least 1866. Quantities of gun-cotton might have been limited, shown by The Field's 1866 trial being unable to source enough of the new cartridges for the public trial. The EC powder company started around 1884, and in 1898/9 the E C & Schultze Powder Company was formed; anything marked thus would be after that date, as you surmised with your label information. The label provides dram-to-grain conversion information, which is very interesting indeed. It is nice when pieces of the puzzle mesh together.

Here is a Bussey & Smith advert for 1867 (in the Mercantile Navy List and Maritime Directory):

Here is Stephen Nash's article on pin-fires and gun-cotton in this month's issue of Diggory's on-line magazine "Vintage Gun Journal."

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/gun-cotton-and-pinfires

I'm sure that some of these old pin-fires would probably stand Nitro Proof. A case in point is a pin-fire converted to centre fire that I previously owned by Thomas Newton of Manchester which had been converted and then submitted to nitro proof which it had passed okay. It still of course had its original Damascus barrels. Lagopus.....

I hope followers of this thread won't mind an intermission in this fascinating discussion of early ammunition production and marketing to consider a pinfire gun I've recently acquired by Wm. Gasquoine.

Gasquoine is mentioned earlier in this wonderful thread as "Gasquoine & Dyson (1846-1864)" and in connection with a 12-bore underlever gun with back-action locks, No. 1579.

The rib of my gun is marked simply "Wm. GASQUOINE [no Mr. Dyson], MARKET PLACE. MANCHESTER. No. 1971". I checked Gasquoine & Dyson’s trade history against 3 main sources: Nigel Brown’s British Gunmakers, Vol II; a lot description; for a different gun sold at Bonham’s; and the archive of trade directories maintained by the University of Leicester Special Collections Online.

Bonham’s catalogue entry states that: "Gasquoine & Dyson are recorded at 1 Blue Boar Court, Manchester between 1846 and 1852, and at 26* Market Place, Manchester between 1854 and 1864.” Nigel Brown doesn’t mention Dyson, and gives a different address "Albert Street, Eccles, Manchester, Lancs”** and dates “1857-c.70".

A trawl of the trade directories indicates that Gasquoine & Dyson went into business sometime between 1841-1847, trading first at 4 Old Millgate, in central Manchester; moving, before 1850, just a few doors down to premises at 1 Blue Boar Court; and then expanding, by 1863, into adjacent premises at 24A Market place, which they retained until at least 1879. Over this period, William Gasquoine probably lived successively at Hulme, Cheetham and Eccles; while James Dyson may have resided at Salford then Lower Broughton. The Directories show the firm as still trading in 1877-1878, but as having ceased to do so by 1883. When they moved to 24A Market Place, they began to describe themselves more expansively, as “Gun, pistol & rifle manufacturers, and agents for Eley Brothers' ammunition”. In 1876, Dyson’s appears to have temporarily left the firm, but by 1877 he is back, although after this date, both men stop listing their residential addresses.

As my gun is not marked with Dyson's name, it seems likely that it was made between 1864 and 1877 (no surprise for a pinfire). I hope it will be possible to find directories for the intervening years to narrow down Dyson's period of absence from the business.

* Bonham's reference to 26 Market Place seems to reflect an error in the 1863 directory
**Brown appears to mistake Gasquoine's private Eccles address for that of his firm. Contemporary maps show that Albert Street was a residential road lined with semi-detached villas.

Sources:
A. Pigot & Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1841 [No entries]
B. Slater's Directories of Important English Towns, 1847, p.184
C. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1850, pp. 131, 154, 452
D. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1853, pp. 132, 153, 453
E. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1863, pp. 210, 849
F. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1876 [Part 1: Alphabetical Directory], p.245
G. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1876 [Part 2: Trades, Institutions, Streets, etc.], p.21, p.99
H. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1877-1878 [Part 1: Alphabetical Directory] p.246
I. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1877-1878 [Part 2: Trades, Institutions, Streets, etc.], pp.22, 115
J. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1879 [Part 1: Alphabetical Directory], p.196
K. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1879 [Part 2: Trades, Institutions, Streets, etc.], p.126, 347
L. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1883 [Part 1: Alphabetical Directory] [No entries]
M. Slater's Directory of Manchester & Salford, 1883 [Part 2: Trades, Institutions, Streets, etc.] [No entries]


The barrels are damascus and 30" long. The undersides of the breech ends are stamped with Birmingham proof marks used between 1855-1875, along with "13" and "B&P". There are no markings on the barrel flats, and the action table is simply stamped with the Birmingham inspection mark. The serial no. is repeated on the tang of the trigger guard, but seemingly nowhere else. Also on the tang, just behind the bow of the guard, is a set of initials: "J.J.O."

The decoration of the gun is mostly deep acanthus scroll, which on the lock plates and trigger guard bow incorporates what I take to be an English setter, which, on the left and right plates is flushing a black cock, and a grey hen, respectively. The round-bodied action also features game scenes, depicting a challenge between black cocks (L) and pheasant cocks (R), in a considerably less accomplished and lively manner. I wonder if the emphasis on walked-up black game reflects the nature of the sportsman's pursuits in the environs of Manchester in the 1860s. The decorative scheme of the Bonham's gun also suggests that the dog-and-bird-amid-acanthus-scroll may have been a house style:
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tz5y...66p50p36w5svwts&st=yswk52xk&dl=0[/img]

The gun has evidently been restored, but to my eye at least, this has been done very well, with little blurring to the engraving, and a slim stock extension to which the acanthus-engraved heel and toe plates have been neatly fitted. The right hammer is a replacement, less shapely than the original on the left, but not obtrusively mismatched. The action is tight, the chequering sharp, and the bores polished. Unfortunately, I have not as yet been able to remove the locks, as these have through-screws front and rear (instead of the more usual rear clips) and I am currently unable to convince the rear screw to do the other half of its duty.

I've attached a few pictures below, but please ask if you would like to see other aspects of the gun. And please do let me know if you have any further observations or information on the maker. The gun came to me un-cased, and I have been unable so far to trace a trade label for Gasquoine alone, although Bonham's and Fine Sporting Collectibles were able to furnish images of labels from Gasquoine & Dyson:
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d2ph...gz76mepx9yzs915&st=enfiew7o&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ytkc...m338ec170aylpz2&st=uzny7fxs&dl=0[/img]

Images of my gun:
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/eih8...1xhq898au2x6nzz&st=3j5f3q10&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/jnqj...3nrmrjx6e50c4q4&st=2d6uve1r&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5mkg...5im734rfvxx51cl&st=nq14glh9&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5mkg...5im734rfvxx51cl&st=pjs8zu4s&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u53x...me4uebyo1moak47&st=bcy3ivkq&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/u53x...me4uebyo1moak47&st=hyz9khfw&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/q682...f47l1fk8hxvug5r&st=iy901yg5&dl=0[/img]
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gyhr...cvs26g3upiifc6t&st=4w9yuapj&dl=0[/img]


Finally, consulting the NLS map archive and Google Maps shows that wartime destruction and post-war re-development have erased all the premises mentioned above. Post-war maps indicate that 24A Market Place was the only building in its immediate vicinity to survive the Blitz, but a local history site comments that it was too far gone to survive the redevelopment that follows. They can however be traced on [img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/t3om...d0ue3qt9y4gk8nh&st=myza4rip&dl=0[/img]a town plan from 1889 (pub. 1891)
The Manchester photo archive also has an image that shows half of what would have been the frontage of Gasquoine & Dyson's Market Place Premises. Interestingly, No.24 is occupied by a firm called W. Dyson, although its line of business is tripe rather than guns and there appears to be no connection with its former homonymous occupant!
[img]https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3xvh...ieg4ny9qf5frda2&st=do0eyic5&dl=0[/img]

Living not too far from Manchester I have come across quite a few examples of Manchester Gunmakers' guns. Most I have seen have been excellent examples but less well known as I guess their output was rather small. I have a Newton of Manchester pin-fire and a double .410 hammer gun by Stensby. I went to Stensby's shop sometime before it closed; they being the last of that line. It was a real old fashioned shop and totally out of place in that modern part of the city. I did at least manage to acquire their enamelled metal cartridge sales sign. Hard to find a badly made gun made in that city. Lagopus.....

This Newnham sold recently at Southams. Despite its present sad state someone clearly saw the potential as the hammer price was £110.

He converted it to pinfire, using a slipper lump no doubt attached to the original muzzle loading barrel, from what was originally a high quality percussion single by C. Moore - the predecessor to Woodward.

It's heartening to think that there are individuals about -presumably more than one, if there was some bidding involved- who can both see, and more importantly, realise the potential of a gun of that sort.

I have revised my initial post on the basis of further information.