doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com fox a vs fox a

This line got me:

"My next first complaint is how a Fox flops apart when you open it. To me, this feels cheap, and the force it puts on the hammers can crack the action."

Never heard of cracking a Fox action simply by opening it.

And this:

"This means many were made with short chambers, and none were built for the high pressures and recoil generated by most modern ammunitions."

I think the Winchester Super X shot shell was introduced in 1921. I do not think post 1920 Foxes had any issues with these. And the short chambers were 2 5/8" but intended for 2 3/4" shells. Savage changed to 2 3/4" chambers after they bought the company. Of course you guys know this.

It's obvious he is not an AH Fox fan. Of course I am biased because I love old Foxes. I find the article poorly written and poorly researched. YMMV

1914 A.H. Fox recommended loads, courtesy of Researcher



12g 1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams BULK Smokeless was 6000 - 8000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE (Ballistite [sic] & Infallible) Smokeless was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

16g 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. BULK Smokeless (1165 fps) was about 7500 psi;
2 3/4 Dram (1220 fps) about 8500 psi.

20g (Period reported pressures vary significantly)
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dram BULK Smokeless was 8000-10,000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 11,000 - 12,500 psi.


Outdoor Life November 1923, “An American Super 12”
https://archive.org/details/sim_outdoor-life_1923-11_52_5/page/356/mode/2up
DuPont No. 93 (which became DuPont Oval)
Super-X 2 3/4” Field with 1 1/4 oz. and 40 grains powder No. 4 shot = 8,871 psi + 10-14% for piezo transducer numbers
Record 3” with 1 3/8 oz. shot and 42 grains powder = 10,080 psi + 10-14%

In a 1927 Western Cartridge Co. flyer “Super-X The Long Range Load” by Capt. Chas. Askins the 12g “Duck Load” (not specified but presumed to be 1 1/4 oz. Super-X “Field”) is described as 3 1/2 dram (38.5 gr. DuPont Oval Powder = 11 gr. / Dr. Eq.); at 1400 fps (at the muzzle rather than 3 feet), with a breech pressure of 3 3/4 tons or about 8,400 psi + 10-14%
3” Super-X “Record” with 1 3/8 oz. at MV 1400 fps with 4.25 tons = 9,520 psi + 10-14%

For the $5000 retail price of the new one, I'll take a original Fox SW 16 or 20 gauge that I buy for $1500 and dump $3500 into it, making it next to perfect, hands down over that recycled piece of junk they put Fox's name on.

I guess I don't get out much, but I thought that was a weird article. I guess I should subscribe to that publication and see how the other half lives. I'm saving a bunch of money now that I let Shooting Sportsman go and the Double Gun Journal is no longer with us.

It's an RBL, shaped to resemble the A.H. Fox. Nothing wrong with an RBL, just not at 5K, how about 2.5? A better effort perhaps than the Fox model B was which is not an A.H. Fox either. Both branded Savage.

You and me both, Bill. I'm considering subscribing to one of the better English hunting rags. Not much left here worth getting, IMO.

It is hard to condense so many wrong opinions in one article but he did it.

That's exactly what I did but bought both after they were already worked on. I have a pair of nicely restored Fox Sterlingworth's, one in 16 gauge the other a 20. I was patient and got them both for a little less than your total. I actually still have a 20 gauge RBL that I like a lot but sold a 16 I had. I thought it was too heavy for my liking. There was a 20 gauge Savage that was practically new on a table at Hauseman's last year for $3,200 but I could not justify it even though it was tempting.

Just wondering, what does the extra $3500 of "dumpage" add to your $1500 initial purchase price of a SW (Sterlingworth) AH Fox, and also, in purchasing a SW in today's market, do you prefer to find a Phila. PA manufactured Fox gun, or one made later in Utica, NY. ??? RWTF..