doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com New .410

I had been watching a .410 single side lever for the better part of a year on GI. I recently bought another single 410 for my collection of single shots. While it was a good representative example, the barrel was bad and it was truly a child's gun. This one looked better but carried a higher price due to a potential provenance. I finally contacted the seller and discussed the gun. It was a consignment gun with a reported provenance, but the person had passed on and nothing had been provided. I ended up making an offer based on the gun as is and purchased it. It is marked FT Baker Gun Manufacturer - London. When it arrived I was pleased that in person it is in better shape than the pictures show. The barrel has a few small pits in the central portion but is smooth and looks serviceable. The barrel is 28" and the stock is a full size with drop of 1-1/8" x 2-1/8" with a 14-1/4" LOP. A really shootable gun. The barrel profile is octagon blended to 16, followed by a nice wedding ring and then round. It carries London proofs with at least one odd mark I am not familiar with. From other confirmed serial numbers I have seen reported, the date on the presentation plate seems reasonable. It is all original with the exception of two chips at the rear of the forearm bottom. The number 2 is stamped on each metal part which corresponds to the last digit of the serial number. Springs are all very strong. The chamber is a true 2" chamber exactly. I say this because I used a Brownell's gauge which is marked at 2-1/2" and 3". I marked this gauge and read it as exactly 2". I checked the other two marks and found that they measured at 2-5/8" and 3-1/8". I found this odd since the entire set has always checked out at exact lengths. I take that to mean the two normal lengths are normally chambered at those lengths. The only other note is that it has a barrel makers mark of JL and the interior of the fore end wood is marked " 11" near the front. No idea except it might be a fore end length.

Here are pictures. Any comments on the gun or markings would be appreciated.

My first thought was “converted Rook Rifle” but the.410 Cartridge marking on the lower tang looks to be applied when it was first made.

Are there any proof marks under the barrel in front of the forend lug?

P.S. Sorry , just read your second post.

I think made as a 2” .410 but British Proof marks at that time did not give much detail.

Me like!

The London Proof Marks could have been applied at any time during the early Breechloading period so don’t greatly assist in dating the gun.

It would be interesting to establish when .410 centrefire shotgun cartridges were first made.

According to Wikipedia, referencing W. Harding “Eley Cartridges” - Lancaster pattern pinfire and centrefire .410 cartridges first appeared in Eley Brothers Ltd. flysheets in 1857. By 1874, Eley were advertising modern centerfire 410 cartridges.

The action style of your gun is similar to many early rook rifles.

F.T. Baker succeeded to the business of Thomas Kerslake Baker in 1858, died 1887, but the business of F.T. Baker continued until 1916 having been acquired by Westley Richards in 1913.

I mentioned in the post above that there was a provenance claimed by the consignor. He claimed that it was a gun given to Clara Barton, but did not provide documentation before he passed. I discounted this, but over the months of watching the gun I starting digging a little and found that this may not be as bizarre as it sounds, and actually there may be some support. She was always known as a very ladylike person in society, but many sources report that she was raised as somewhat of a tomboy. Her dad taught her military history and by her own account wanted to grow up to be a soldier. Her brothers taught her to shoot and ride at an early age, and she enjoyed a vigorous outdoor lifestyle whenever possible. She was attacked, shot at (narrowly escaping death at one point), famously worked on the battlefield in the Civil War and several European conflicts. Due to becoming totally exhausted and rundown from her activities for over a decade, she moved to Dansville NY in 1876 and entered a sanitarium and regained her health and constitution. She bought her own home two years later and lived there while forming and organizing the American Red Cross. A doctor from the sanitarium became her key assistant. During the next several years she became easily the most prominent resident of the region. During this time (1875) the Dansville Sporting and Gun club was formed and by many accounts is the oldest continuously operating club in the US. In her own writings from those years she talks often of getting outdoors, taking cross country jaunts of several miles and riding and sleighing with one of her 7 horses, which she brags on as to speed. I doubt she ever used a side saddle, from her descriptions.

I was not at all aware before, but I found one listing of ranking the top female shooters of all time. In it, she was ranked No. 2 right behind Annie Oakley, The write-up talked of her shooting skills from an early age and the fact that she often put on shooting exhibitions as part of her Red Cross fund raising efforts. It is not at all improbable, with a local shooting club available, that she participated locally.

Where all this possibly comes together is the latter part of her period in Dansville. After forming the Red Cross, her reputation grew by leaps and bounds during the early 1880's due to their work and support during the famous Michigan fires and deadly flooding in the Ohio and Mississippi valleys, where they saved countless lives. She was, by all accounts, a popular member of society there. This vaulted her to National fame in a big way and made her easily the most famous resident. In December of 1884 Dansville suffered a sever Typhoid Fever epidemic, that ran into 1885. During the crisis, the local chapter (No. 1) that was also the National headquarters was instrumental in providing supplies and aide during the suffering. The epidemic ended in 1885, Barton announced plans to leave for Washington DC late in the year and left town for the last time in March 1886. Different serial number records of guns which have been dated show that it is easily possible the gun I purchased was made in 1885. More over, it is a gun which at that time would have been imported into the country through NY or Boston. It very well could have been given as a presentation piece to Dansville's most famous and well liked resident in thanks for the aid she provided during a town crisis.

I have found quite a bit to document a lot of this, just not the gun. However, I did find that after she left a former newsman and historian from the town compiled over many years a rather lengthy book of every newspaper article, public announcement, official documents, pictures, society notes, letters and anything else he could locate pertaining to her life there. This was privately published anonymously well over 100 years ago. The Red Cross several years ago republished it in a very limited addition. I was able to find a copy at an attractive price and I am waiting for it to arrive. If there was any kind of a presentation, award, or goodbye ceremony, it should be documented in that book. If there is no reference there or in her book "My Life", I will likely never find a connection.

wood luv to no more bout Clara...

Wow!

It may be worth trying Westley Richards to see if they still have F.T. Baker’s records. That might at least confirm when the gun was exported to the States.

AGS, could you post a closeup pic of the transition area of the barrel where you said it goes from octagon to 16 flats, then to round? I can't see the area with 16 clearly.

Thanks, Stan

"Interesting story to the gun. Nice to be able to put some 'flesh on the bones'. When that gun was made the .410 was only available in 2" so the chamber length would not be mentioned. The 2 1/2" came in around 1913 and the 3" around the late 1930's. Eley certainly still make 2" cartridges as do some other European makers. Of course this will be a black powder era gun. Lagopus.....

Interesting that some have mentioned a relationship to a Rook & Rabbit rifle. My first thought was that it is amazingly similar to my W.J. Jeffrey R&R rifle on a Daw action, except that the receiver looks longer, which makes sense.

Speaking of which, I need to get the Jeffrey out and shoot it!!