doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish guns question.

I’m familiar with the knock on Spanish guns of a certain era. In particular the “not properly treated metal” problem. But I don’t really know the dates or period of time where those problems occurred.

So my question is, when did the Spanish makers get their crap together and start hardening their metal components properl? When did they put that problem behind them?

James:

Terry Wieand's book "Spanish Best" addressed this (I believe, been a while since Ive read it). If memory serves, the hardening issues date from the late 50s thru the early 70s and then only on fairly inexpensive models.

Thanks Lloyd.

‘Gotta digress, Lloyd.

That problem went on far longer than the early 1970s, and hit more than just the cheapies. My contacts in St. Etienne were well aware of the problem being a current bug-a-boo when I was there in 1997. The double gun revival ran about parallel with Michael McIntosh’s popularity as a writer, until he died, and the problem was mixed in with the bunches of Spanish guns that were being imported to the states at that time. The most frustrating thing about it is the complete random way it hits, across anything from Spain.

Not hating, I have owned for many years a Spanish boxlock, a low end Uggy box lock, it does what I ask and then some. It was built in 1972, and didn’t appear to suffer the curse, but, Cole Haugh annealed and rehardened the bits anyway, when I had some work done to it. I look at the nice Spanish guns offered for sale on the web all the time, but, temper my lust by wondering why a 25 year old side lock looks unused with the notion there might be a damn good reason for that.

Don’t shoot the messenger.

Best,
Ted

Just noticed the thread on UJ Ted.

The problem of improperly heat-treated small parts In Spanish artisanal shotguns was (and is) not limited to any given date range or specific maker, or range of price points.

To understand why this is so requires an understanding of how the artisanal shotgun makers do the business of assembling and selling shotguns.

Here is a quick thumbnail overview.

A Spanish artisanal shotgun maker will not begin making a shotgun until he has a shotgun order that describes the characteristics of the shotgun the customer wants made and a sizable deposit of the finished shotgun.

With an order and deposit in hand the maker collects the parts that will be needed to assemble the ordered shotgun. By and large, the shotgun makers do not make their own parts and parts assemblies. Rather they depend on an extensive layer of small businesses that specialize in the making of some small part or parts assembly for the parts they will hand fit to produce the shotgun ordered by the customer.

The shotgun makers are sized, as a business, to have the number of people with the required skills to produce a limited number of shotguns a year. A small business may produce less than one hundred shotgun a year, a larger business may produce a few hundred shotguns a year.

The underlying layer of parts makers is just big enough to support that level of shotgun production. This layer of parts makers is inflexible and does not scale up or down very well.

And that inflexibility is the origin of improperly heat-treated parts. When shotgun makers get orders from retailers for more shotguns than they are sized to produce delivery times get long and part suppliers get orders they have trouble delivering.

This is the point at which whatever passed for what we would regard as quality control at the parts makers starts to go south. Some of the parts they make are poorly heat treated (or not heat treated at all) before delivery to the shotgun makers.

That’s how soft parts get into Spanish artisanal shotguns. No maker or price point is immune. There are no time periods when this cannot happen. It can happen whenever the level of demand for finished shotguns goes above the level of demand for parts that can be comfortably delivered.

Can shotguns with soft parts be avoided, or made right? Yes. It just takes knowledge, attention to detail, and access to a gunsmith willing and able to deal with any problems detected.

Do I want people to be unconcerned and buy Spanish shotguns? No. I collect and shoot used Spanish shotguns and the fewer people buying Spanish shotguns the fewer competitors I have at the auctions where I feed my collection of Spanish shotguns :-)

the Spanish shotgun curse is mostly a myth...

the most common problem being soft sears...

much to do about not very much...

but, don't expect a $500 gun to have the qualities and durability as a $1000 gun...

Kyrie made some great points. Yes, there was a time that some issues where made with the Spanish guns. I know they have come around to avoid that again. As you know I was one of the oldest importers of the Arrieta line of shotguns and much later the AYAs also. I have had good luck with both brands on guns as far as quality issues. I have an arrieta that was built for me and it has been shot alot. About 200 rounds a month for many years now. So saying that I can probable say I will shoot a Spanish gun more that the average hunter. No issues. All my years importing both brand of guns I have never had to get the parts rehardend. I will tell you to stay away from 28 or 410 ga Spanish guns with single triggers.

John
Arrieta

PS: Anything mechanical can break. The Rolls Royce dealer was at one time by my office, they did repairs as well as sales.

I remember a couple friends having to have Cole Haugh replace firing pins on Spanish guns, but only a few. I have owned 2 AyA's, 1 Garbi, 1 Grulla, 3 Arietta's and while they all haven't been perfect, none exhibited the soft parts issue. They may not measure up to a London best but there is no question for the money they were great buys. As John and my gunsmith point out, they can all break.

Quite the 'artisan' that uses improperly made vendor parts in his products.

What can be easier to detect than improperly hardened parts? Certainly these makers own a file.

But then Krieghoff can't harden a firing pin either so there's that...

They blame the primers. Erosion is blamed on pierced soft primers, tip deformation is blamed on primers that are too hard.

What does Beretta blame it on? They don't have to because they can make firing pins.

While it is true that anything can break, walking into known problems requires access to the dwindling trade that can fix this stuff or the ability to do the work yourself.

Lacking that, best practice is avoidance.

People STILL buy Toyota Tundras and GM 6.2's... even with the well documented and very common failures.

'"It's been fixed!". Uh... no, it hasn't and will never be.

Caveat Emptor.