doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish guns question.

"Spanish Artisanal Shotguns" You sound like "Beans" talking about LC Smith guns.

Just a couple of comments on this subject. When it comes to a gun makers finished product, the maker themselves is solely responsible for the heat treating and overall QC of the various parts they have sourced throughout the trade whether that be forgings, castings, barrels, wood, etc. If the gunmakers are getting inferior parts that don't meet quality standards (type of steel, etc.), that's on the maker to take care of by dealing with that vendor. If the gunmaker is sending out a finished gun that has parts that are not properly heat treated or made from the correct grade of steel, that's on them.

Just to drive the point home, no gun-trade parts makers or vendors send parts out that are already heat treated. Heat treating happens after the parts are fully machined, shaped and fitted. Sending out heat treated parts like actions, forend irons, ejector bits, tumblers, locking bolts, spring blanks, etc would be counter productive seeing how heat treated parts are a pain in the ass to machine, fit and otherwise work with. It would also add in the extra step of having to spend valuable time annealing everything to a soft state so it could actually be worked on. As many gunsmiths will tell you, hardening a part is only part of the process, it'll also have to be properly tempered and "drawn back". If you've ever had to make any parts or tools, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

The Spaniards could always harden steel with the best of them, the proper methods of tempering & drawing back is where they fell short and for some odd reason, they (the so called Artisanal makers) didn't seem to care all that much. Who knows, maybe when that part of the process at some of these shops was supposed to take place, it just happened to be right on the cusp of "Siesta" and they just never really got around to it or they just didn't care all that much. If you've ever lived in Spain, you know what I'm talkin' about.

Good one!

Dustin nailed it.

Heat treating, such as hardening and tempering, is not done until the parts are machined and fitted. A grade of steel suitable for the desired heat treating must be used, and then the heat treatment process itself must be done correctly. Then there are relatively simple ways to determine that the proper hardness was achieved. Springs can be fully flexed to see whether they break, or feel mushy, or take a set. Firing pins, hammer notches, trigger sear noses, etc. can be checked for sufficient hardness and toughness. It's called inspection and quality control.

Like Ted, I also own a Ugartechea Falcon, but mine has not been serviced or had heat treating redone. It continues to function flawlessly, but then again, it isn't used a lot. I got a great deal on it, and probably the biggest reason for that is that some Spanish gunmakers managed to ruin the reputation of Spanish guns through poor workmanship or complacency. I got it so cheap that I figured I could use it for trading stock on something else. But being a modern shotgun with 3" chambers, I decided to keep it to shoot up higher pressure ammo that I wouldn't use in my vintage or Damascus doubles.

Shotgunjones is also right... some manufacturers of guns, trucks, etc. simply continue to send junk out the door long after they are aware there is a problem. It's up to the consumer to do their homework, and to learn from others' mistakes. Sometimes, being first in line to buy a new product doesn't work out so well. With something like a new engine or firearm design, it might be a couple years before design errors begin to show up.

If what has been presented here is accurate then I've learned a lot in this post that I simply didn't realize.

My 1997 New England Arms Arrieta 557 has had zero functional issues (other than me falling on it and cracking the stock, which took quite a bit to fix) and moreover, the many AyAs and Grullas we sold at MW Reynolds, starting in the early 2000s (& running for another ~20-years) never failed to due to unhardened metal that I know of. All I can remember as reported problems were some "fit" issues (as in the gun not fitting the ultimate user) and a few safeties that would come on after use (in the 453 AyAs, never any problem with the Grullas), but that was about it.

I do like the look and perhaps "feel" of English guns a little better, but that's as much art and history as anything. I'd certainly buy another Spanish gun if I found one that I could justify, and FWIW...being able to use 2 3/4-shells in a "modern" firearm is a nice convenience.

Edit to add: when I think of all the nigging little (& even bigger) issues we had to deal with from much-older English (& American) guns over-the-years, the Spanish guns were pretty trouble free by comparison...

The only firing pin that was replaced in my world happened on a Beretta Silver Snipe, circa 1970. The ‘Snipes had a reputation for firing pins breaking, and the lower barrel firing pin did just that on my Dads. We went to Ahlman’s where it was fixed in about 15 minutes while we watched. The gun was 6 years old at that point in time. The hot tip was to buy two, and save the factory version as a spare. After that we drove to Owatonna and did some pheasant hunting on public dirt.

I still have the spare. Still have the gun, too.

Best,
Ted

I had hoped to learn a lot more about all those Spanish shotguns with soft parts from this Thread. We have heard it repeated for many years. I really expected that we would have had numerous posts from guys who had problems with cocking, doubling, failure to fire, accidental discharges, etc.

But the worst we got in this thread is reports of a couple soft firing pins. That's hardly the end of the world. I've seen a fair number of mushroomed firing pins in American guns, even some made by respected makers. Also have seen American guns with worn or fractured sears. So now I'm left wondering if this bad reputation of Spanish guns was ever factual and accurate, or if it is "mostly a myth", as Ed says. I have seen a number of cheap and poorly finished Spanish guns. You could tell they were poor quality from 50 feet away at a gun show, and that probably carried over into the internal parts. But we don't judge the quality of better American guns based upon the lesser quality of millions of cheap hardware store guns.

I'm not likely to turn my interests and future purchases toward Spanish doubles... but at this point, all those horror stories about Spanish doubles is starting to sound a lot like the cock and bull stories about small bore Ithaca Flues shotguns being especially prone to frame cracking.

Worth a note: Weiland's book is now available as a Kindle book - which means it's searchable by keyword.

The discussion of Spanish Steel tarts at location 1535...