doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Wall thickness opinion

Drew;

Who do you think stamped the barrels 2 5/8? Was it stamped by the proofing authorities or was it stamped after proof by others?

KInd regards;
Stephen Howell

Very likely the maker. I've only seen chamber length in 'American' on guns obviously intended for export to U.S. dealers, and the proof house would have used mm.
As you know 'choke' in English is 'choke de canon de fusil' in French. An 'express' rifle is 'fusil express'.

Drew;

That is my take on the stamping in "American" chamber length in inches as well. It is counter to logic that in a country where the metric measuring system is the standard that the proof "house" would stamp anything in inches.

Since we've wandered off into Francotte proof marks, this might be of interest.
As greybeard observed, the rule establishing the marking of barrel weights (at the time of 3rd proof) and chamber length & diameter (in mm) came into force June 6 1892 FOR OPTIONAL NITRO PROOF.
And 1897 - 1903, the proof house kindly provided the max. service load, based on the powder with which the gun was proved. I've also seen guns proved with Mullerite, "E.C. No. 3", and "New Schultze"; never with the primary competitor DuPont The maker paying for the extra Nitro proof could request the powder used.



A gun imported by William Read (so marked on the rib) It was proved with "E.C. No. 3" which was a 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. powder; so the max. load was 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram. NOTE powder & shot in 'American'



A Francotte which WAS Nitro proved for a max. load of 2.72 gram 'Schultze' powder = 42 grains = 3 Dram with 31.5 gram = about 1 1/8 oz. shot
The ACO in the circle is Acier Cockerill-Ougrée, the major Belgian steel maker, equivalent to Krupp or Vickers.
Note again 2 sets of muzzle and bore dimensions



I suspect the proof house gave up as more and more powders, at different strengths, were introduced.

The original “Schultze” & “E.C.” No. 1 Bulk Smokeless were 14 grains/dram
The original DuPont Bulk was 13 1/3 grains/dram
The original Laflin & Rand and Hazard “Blue Ribbon” Bulk were 12 1/3 grains/dram
Advertisements appeared in the later part of 1906 for “New DuPont Smokeless” which was also 12 1/3 grains/dram
“New Schultze”, New “E.C.(Improved) No. 2” Bulk Smokeless were 12 grains/dram.
“E.C. No. 3” was 11 grains/dram or 33 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.
Dense “Ballistite” and “Infallible” were later listed as equivalent at 8 grains/dram.

42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“E.C.” No. 1
“Schultze”
DuPont Bulk (40 gr.)
Dead Shot
Curtis & Harvey “Amberite” (40 gr. on introduction - later 42 gr.)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd “Cannonite Shot-gun”
Smokeless Powder Co. “S.S.” (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. “Cooppal’s No. 1” (or “Wetteren”) and “Clermonite”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 1”
United States Smokeless Powder Co. “Gold Dust”
Dynamit Nobel’s Troisdorf Powder Co. “Troisdorf” (41.5 grains)
American Wood Powder
“J.B.” Powder

36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
New DuPont Bulk (37 grains)
Laflin & Rand Bulk (37 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. “Blue Ribbon” (37 grains)
“E.C.” No. 2 (Improved)
“New Schultze”

33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” (introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (1903)
Red Star (New Explosives Co., Stowmarket)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 2”
Nobel’s Explosive Co. “Empire”
“Cooppal’s No. 2” (30 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.)

I've been shooting Damascus barrels for over 30 years. Each person who does so assumes some risk like many things in life. Most of my barrels are above .020 12 inches from the muzzle.
I shoot both smokeless and black. I run literally thousands of rounds through those guns every year. Personally I am more concerned with cracked stocks than I am of blown out damascus barrels. If you shoot any shotgun no matter what steel the barrels are made of you need to own and know how to operate a wall thickness gauge.
I buy guns other people pass on and I am very grateful for it. All of my reloads are 5000 to 6500 psi. My barrels will definitely outlive me!

Are you really saying that every shotgunner, even those competitive shotgunners who shoot brand new P and K guns, need to own wall thickness gauges?

That sounds a bit extreme to me.

The new Fabbri guns are supposed to be built to withstand firing a 12 bore gun with a 20 bore shell in the barrel without sustaining damage. It’s claimed that zero change to the barrels occurs. I don’t know. I have never tried it. Don’t plan on it.

Nor do I plan on playing Damascus roulette. Cannot see myself doing surgery without the use of my hands. I’ll just buy guns with modern steels built after WW1. Guns that remain in proof and excellent repair.

I never felt shooting damascus to be roulette, but I shoot percussion rifles from the 1830's.

Good walls, bores and proper loads go a long way toward maintaining safety. In proof is certainly my preference, but if the walls are thick enough, the bores are good and the price is right, I might be a player. Location is everything when is comes to wall thickness.

I have been looking for the right Grant side-lever damascus hammer gun, it might be just the ticket over my Setter.

Were the gun mine, could I shoot it, yes I could.

Would I need to be careful about the load pressure, yes, very much so.

Is it likely it could make me paranoid every time I pull the trigger, yes.

The Baikal guns are known to be able to resist the 20 gauge shell lodged in the tube and the 12 gauge fired into it, with no damage.

I don’t want a Baikal, however.

Best,
Ted