doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com *Help! Lefever Syracuse 16ga?

Looked at a 16ga Lefever today that was a little different than some I've seen, Top rib reads Lefever Arms Makers Syracuse NY, barrels are 28" Damascus, bores clean, ball grip, original butt plate, and has 70% case color remaining. Barrel flats have an "E" before the serial number, and the water table has an "F" after the serial number. All screw heads are engraved, but only border engraving on the side plates. Two small wheels/rollers? on the front of the frame is this an early model? Serial number is in the 105xx range. A clean and light little gun that has been in a closet the past 35 years, Seller was asking $850, is that a fair price?

Any help and information on this old Lefever is appreciated.

O-D

O-D;
I have a 10ga Lefever, SN'd 10515 so in the same area. This should be a cocking rod gun, so has cocking cams in knuckle joint. Mine don't really look like wheels or rollers, but perhaps were some variations in how they were made. Mine is an E & has the E after SN on frame table & before te SN on bbl flats. It has a scroll design engraved on the side plates. Mine has the side pivot top lever, but some of these rod cockers had the thumb push opener. I have seen an F grade 12ga thumb push gun & it only had the border engraving as you mention on this one. The frame sure sounds like an F but have no idea why it has the E on the bbls. I assume, as you didn't mention otherwise the SN's match other than the E & F. I have been out of buying/selling for several years, so not really up on current prices, but those old rodcockers are really neat guns, not that plentiful particularly in anything smaller than 12ga. In the condition you describe I would personally think that a very reasonable price, but hopefully someone more currently knowledgeable will reply.
Incidently Cornell Publishers has a reprint for an 1895 LAC catalog which details this basic action.

Miller, Thanks for the reply.
This one has the side pivot top lever as you described, and the wheels or rollers I mentioned are most likely the cocking cams. On the "E" and "F" stamps, there's a possibility they are both E's and the one letter is just a little worn at bottom making it look like an "F". All serial numbers match, frame, barrels, trigger guard, and forend. The gun is tight and the stock has nice figured wood. As Lefever seems to have always been changing their designs, were there any serious downsides to this earlier model and it's cocking mechanism?

Thanks, O-D

Even though your gun appears to be plainer than the normal E Grade, it may actually be an E Grade because the 10,000 series E Grades are very plain with only little rosettes of scroll and only lines otherwise. 16 gauge rod cockers are a bit scarce but I don't know how scarce. Maybe someone will view the LACA serial number list to tell this poster how many 16s precede his in reported guns. 16 gauge E Grade #9568 seems to be the earliest serial number of a rod cocker, pivot lever that is not a prototype or otherwise odd gun like a three barrel. By the way, E Grade 16 #9568 doesn't even have scroll rosettes, only nicely engraved screws and borders. Between 9568 and your gun, there couldn't have been many 16s when you consider the popularity of tens and twelves. In clean operative condition, with good barrels, the price mentioned sounds reasonable. If you can post a picture, the E or F question may be cleared up immediately. Bill Murphy

Bill,
This one sounds much like the "E" you described, all the screws were engraved including the screw on the underside of the forearm, and if I remember correctly even some of the smaller adjustment screws were finely engraved. Must admit, I am thoroughly confused on the Lefever engraving patterns, I thought E's had Dogs, and F's had Birds on the side plates? I was rushed and only got a quick glance today, but I'll give it a harder look tomorrow and post pics if I bring it home. I do remember this Lefever being somewhat light, but Not having the double "XX" pattern on the water table like I've seen on other small frame Lefever's, perhaps that mark came much later in production?

O-D

Slow down a bit. Don't pay any attention to Elliott's E Grade pictures. He didn't picture any "early" E Grades in either edition of his book. It isn't his fault, he couldn't do everything. Early E Grades don't look like anything that was made later. Ten thousand era E Grades are very plain and don't look like anything made later in that grade. Early E Grades don't have dogs, birds, or anything like that. Also, early 16s don't have XX on the frame to mark the frame size. Don't worry, it is a real 16. There is a long thread on the Lefever site discussing small gauge frame sizes if you would care to access it. Good luck in your research. Hope we helped.

By the way, I would buy the gun at the price mentioned without much question. I hope that statement prods you in the direction of "buying the gun". PM me if you don't want the gun.

Yes Bill,
You helped more than you know. The wheels have now been set in motion for what can only be described as a well meaning conspiracy among gentlemen with a common goal of accumulating more interesting Old-Doubles for that sanctuary room with all the vintage Hunt & Fish paraphernalia hanging on the walls. Thanks for the quick lesson on early "E" grade engraving, someday I hope to return the favor...... O-D

P.S. Are there many half or ball grip Lefever's out there?

There are very few pictures of early E Grade Lefevers in the sporting press, or even in books on Lefevers, but the March-April 2004 Shooting Sportsman pictures one on page 51 in Rick Pratt's excellent article on Pigeon Guns. The picture, taken by my friend Berle Cherney, is of my Grandfathers 1887 E Grade Pigeon Gun, #10,130, which he apparently bought new when he was a prosperous 31 year old businessman in Hazleton, Pennsylvania. The picture fairly clearly shows the plain sideplates and small scroll rosettes and engraved screws which are its only metal decoration. The wood, wonderful very streaky English Walnut, leaves no doubt that it is an E Grade, further documented by the E marking on the water table. I have owned this great gun since 1957 when my late uncle sent it to me by Railway Express, unannounced, quite a surprise for an 11 year old, just getting involved with bird hunting and double guns. Bill Murphy

Ah, Bill, I love to read stories as yours. They lift my heart. You've been blessed by the years and a loving family. I have, too.